Sargon 1978 UCI Available

[Chessqueen]

Sargon does NOT know the opposition principle, you can view it here and replay what Sargon played.
[pgn][Event "Pawns ending"]
[Date "2021.01.09"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Sargon-engine"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "1900"]
[Time "13:39:43"]
[WhiteElo "1850"]
[TimeControl "900+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/6p1/3k4/8/3K1PP1/8/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "24"]


1. Kc3 Kc5 2. Kd3 Kd5 3. Ke3 Ke6 4. f5+ Ke5 5. Kf3 g6 6. fxg6 Kf6 7. Ke4
Kxg6 8. Kf3 Kg7 9. Ke4 Kf6 10. Kf3 Kg7 11. Ke4 Kg6 12. Kf3 Kg7 {3-fold
repetition} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Bill Forster, author of the Tarrasch GUI, has released a UCI version of Sargon, the well known program from the Spracklens.

I had a copy of Sargon in the early 80's running on my Commodore VIC-20, using a black and white television for a monitor! It was my first chess software that wasn't in a dedicated chess computer.

So here ya go:

Main Tarrasch GUI Website ---->> http://www.triplehappy.com/
Link to Releveant Blog Post ---->> https://triplehappy.wordpress.com/

Here is another game where Sargon was winning versus Cicada rated 1538 but, once more repeated the three fold repetition bug, I will continue this game using Rainman to see how quickly Rainman rated 1619 finish off Cicada

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Date "2021.01.10"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Cicada"]
[Black "Sargon"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "1800"]
[ECO "C20"]
[Opening "Open Game"]
[Time "10:46:09"]
[Variation "Alapin Opening, 1.e4 e5 2.Ne2 Nf6"]
[WhiteElo "1538"]
[TimeControl "600+5"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "97"]


1. e4 e5 2. Ne2 Nf6 3. Nbc3 d5 4. exd5 Nxd5 5. Nxd5 Qxd5 6. Nc3 Qe6 7. Bb5+
c6 8. Be2 Bb4 9. d4 Qd5 10. dxe5 Qxe5 11. Bd2 Bd6 12. Be3 O-O 13. Qd2 Re8
14. Bd4 Qe6 15. Qg5 Qg4 16. Qxg4 Bxg4 17. Rd1 Bxe2 18. Nxe2 Na6 19. Bxg7
Kxg7 20. Rxd6 Re5 21. Kf1 Nb4 22. Rd4 a5 23. Rg4+ Kf6 24. Rf4+ Kg6 25. a3
Nxc2 26. Rf3 Rae8 27. Nf4+ Kg7 28. Rg3+ Kf6 29. Re3 Nxe3+ 30. fxe3 Rb5 31.
Nd3 Rxe3 32. Nf2 Kg7 33. Nd1 Rf5+ 34. Nf2 Rb3 35. g4 Rf4 36. Ke1 Rxb2 37.
Nd3 Re4+ 38. Kd1 Rd4 39. Kc1 Rb3 40. Ne1 Rxg4 41. Nc2 Rg2 42. Rd1 Rxh2 43.
Rd4 Rg2 44. Rc4 h6 45. Rc5 Rg1+ 46. Kd2 Rg2+ 47. Kc1 Rg1+ 48. Kd2 Rg2+ 49.
Kc1 {3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Bill Forster, author of the Tarrasch GUI, has released a UCI version of Sargon, the well known program from the Spracklens.

I had a copy of Sargon in the early 80's running on my Commodore VIC-20, using a black and white television for a monitor! It was my first chess software that wasn't in a dedicated chess computer.

So here ya go:

Main Tarrasch GUI Website ---->> http://www.triplehappy.com/
Link to Releveant Blog Post ---->> https://triplehappy.wordpress.com/

Here is another game where Sargon was winning versus Cicada rated 1538 but, once more repeated the three fold repetition bug, I will continue this game using Rainman to see how quickly Rainman rated 1619 finish off Cicada

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Date "2021.01.10"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Cicada"]
[Black "Sargon"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "1800"]
[ECO "C20"]
[Opening "Open Game"]
[Time "10:46:09"]
[Variation "Alapin Opening, 1.e4 e5 2.Ne2 Nf6"]
[WhiteElo "1538"]
[TimeControl "600+5"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "97"]


1. e4 e5 2. Ne2 Nf6 3. Nbc3 d5 4. exd5 Nxd5 5. Nxd5 Qxd5 6. Nc3 Qe6 7. Bb5+
c6 8. Be2 Bb4 9. d4 Qd5 10. dxe5 Qxe5 11. Bd2 Bd6 12. Be3 O-O 13. Qd2 Re8
14. Bd4 Qe6 15. Qg5 Qg4 16. Qxg4 Bxg4 17. Rd1 Bxe2 18. Nxe2 Na6 19. Bxg7
Kxg7 20. Rxd6 Re5 21. Kf1 Nb4 22. Rd4 a5 23. Rg4+ Kf6 24. Rf4+ Kg6 25. a3
Nxc2 26. Rf3 Rae8 27. Nf4+ Kg7 28. Rg3+ Kf6 29. Re3 Nxe3+ 30. fxe3 Rb5 31.
Nd3 Rxe3 32. Nf2 Kg7 33. Nd1 Rf5+ 34. Nf2 Rb3 35. g4 Rf4 36. Ke1 Rxb2 37.
Nd3 Re4+ 38. Kd1 Rd4 39. Kc1 Rb3 40. Ne1 Rxg4 41. Nc2 Rg2 42. Rd1 Rxh2 43.
Rd4 Rg2 44. Rc4 h6 45. Rc5 Rg1+ 46. Kd2 Rg2+ 47. Kc1 Rg1+ 48. Kd2 Rg2+ 49.
Kc1 {3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

I decided to play it out myself and I took the position and play with Black pieces

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.01.10"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Cicada"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "1900"]
[Time "12:22:25"]
[WhiteElo "1538"]
[TimeControl "600+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/1p3pkp/2p5/p7/2R5/Pr6/2N3r1/2K5 b - - 3 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "14"]


1. ... Rh3 2. Kb2 h5 3. Rc3 Rxc3 4. Kxc3 Rxc2+ 5. Kxc2 h4 6. Kc3 h3 7. Kb3
h2 8. Ka4 {White resigns} *[/pgn]

[Bill Forster]

Sargon does NOT know the opposition principle, you can view it here and replay what Sargon played.

You are quite correct, Sargon does not know the opposition principle. Sargon doesn't know anything really, it is just a thorough (but hence inefficient and bad) calculator that knows nothing except the basic rules. As you have found, it doesn't even know the less basic rules like three-fold repetition. But Sargon is not quite so bad that it can't CALCULATE the opposition principle, if you give it enough time. From the project page https://github.com/billforsternz/retro-sargon;

"It might sound that extending Sargon's search depth well beyond 6 hasn't been very useful because the exponential growth makes levels beyond 8 or so inaccessible in practice. This would be true if chess stopped in the middlegame, but as more and more pieces come off the board, there are less moves to look at in each position, and Sargon can see deeper in a reasonable time. This is the real beauty of adaptive rather than fixed depth. As a simple example consider the position with White (to play) king on e4, pawn on d4, Black king on d7. A serious human player will instantaneously play Kd5 here, knowing that this is the only way to eventually force pawn promotion. Sargon, with absolutely no chess knowledge, just the ability to calculate variations in search of extra material or board control, plays Kd5 at depth 13 (or more). The PV associated with this move features the pawn queening triumphantly right at the end of the line. It takes 3 minutes and 30 seconds to make the calculation on my computer. It's hardly world shattering but it's vastly beyond the capacity of the original Z80 implementation, and shows what a faster CPU and more memory can do to an otherwise fixed chess calculation algorithm."

You should recognise the position described and the move played as being a basic illustration of seizing the opposition.

Bill how much longer will it take you to correct the repetition bug in Sargon so I can play another 10 games, since Sargon is so close to my rating ?

Well I gave myself "at least a week" on December 31st. I was careful not to make promises. I have actually implemented the fix, as anticipated it was not an easy job. I haven't released it yet because I want to do more testing and polishing. In the meantime I have taken some time out to play some chess in the New Zealand championships which is delaying things. I hope you don't mind. You shouldn't expect too much. Sargon will no longer blindly walk into repetitions unnecessarily, but it hasn't become any more skilled at converting winning positions. It needs either a more sophisticated scoring function or greater calculation depth so that it can see the benefit of penetrating with the king or whatever longer term plan will eventually break the opponent.

In general I appreciate your interest in my project, but I wish you would actually read about what I have done and why (hint: giving you an ideal training partner was not one of my goals ). For example;

Since you have been given permission to work or fix Sargon Try to give it NN or NNU,E and fix the evaluation by giving it an extra 100+ ratings points

Given permission? Did the Spracklens join the Talkchess discussion? NNUE????!?. Actually although NNUE grafted onto Sargon is totally insane, who knows it could even be possible.

[mclane]

We should contact them. They enhanced the engine over many years.
The strongest was maybe the sparc module in the Saitek Renaissance.

[Chessqueen]

Sargon does NOT know the opposition principle, you can view it here and replay what Sargon played.

You are quite correct, Sargon does not know the opposition principle. Sargon doesn't know anything really, it is just a thorough (but hence inefficient and bad) calculator that knows nothing except the basic rules. As you have found, it doesn't even know the less basic rules like three-fold repetition. But Sargon is not quite so bad that it can't CALCULATE the opposition principle, if you give it enough time. From the project page https://github.com/billforsternz/retro-sargon;

"It might sound that extending Sargon's search depth well beyond 6 hasn't been very useful because the exponential growth makes levels beyond 8 or so inaccessible in practice. This would be true if chess stopped in the middlegame, but as more and more pieces come off the board, there are less moves to look at in each position, and Sargon can see deeper in a reasonable time. This is the real beauty of adaptive rather than fixed depth. As a simple example consider the position with White (to play) king on e4, pawn on d4, Black king on d7. A serious human player will instantaneously play Kd5 here, knowing that this is the only way to eventually force pawn promotion. Sargon, with absolutely no chess knowledge, just the ability to calculate variations in search of extra material or board control, plays Kd5 at depth 13 (or more). The PV associated with this move features the pawn queening triumphantly right at the end of the line. It takes 3 minutes and 30 seconds to make the calculation on my computer. It's hardly world shattering but it's vastly beyond the capacity of the original Z80 implementation, and shows what a faster CPU and more memory can do to an otherwise fixed chess calculation algorithm."

You should recognise the position described and the move played as being a basic illustration of seizing the opposition.

Bill how much longer will it take you to correct the repetition bug in Sargon so I can play another 10 games, since Sargon is so close to my rating ?

Well I gave myself "at least a week" on December 31st. I was careful not to make promises. I have actually implemented the fix, as anticipated it was not an easy job. I haven't released it yet because I want to do more testing and polishing. In the meantime I have taken some time out to play some chess in the New Zealand championships which is delaying things. I hope you don't mind. You shouldn't expect too much. Sargon will no longer blindly walk into repetitions unnecessarily, but it hasn't become any more skilled at converting winning positions. It needs either a more sophisticated scoring function or greater calculation depth so that it can see the benefit of penetrating with the king or whatever longer term plan will eventually break the opponent.

In general I appreciate your interest in my project, but I wish you would actually read about what I have done and why (hint: giving you an ideal training partner was not one of my goals ). For example;

Since you have been given permission to work or fix Sargon Try to give it NN or NNU,E and fix the evaluation by giving it an extra 100+ ratings points

Given permission? Did the Spracklens join the Talkchess discussion? NNUE????!?. Actually although NNUE grafted onto Sargon is totally insane, who knows it could even be possible.

If you have NOT released it yet. it has to be because you are making other changes, After playing 10 games the score was 5 win 2 draw and 3 lost in my favor, but the two draws games Sargon was clearly winning against me, and decided to repeat three times, which NOW makes Sargon a solid close to 1900 or possibly better on a good computer like inter i9 9900K or i9 10900K but of course Sargon can only uses 1 core, NOT multiple.

NOTE: Can you make it part of the engines that comes with Tarrasch GUI https://www.triplehappy.com/

[Chessqueen]

I should add that I've tested the program, it runs fine and searches about 8 ply on my modest laptop at fast time controls. It will beat you if you don't pay attention. It beats me even when I do.

I just finished another 20 games Against Sargon the unfix one with repetition bug game time control 15'+5" and the final score of these 20 games
14 win 3 lost and 3 draw in my favor. Some people enjoy playing handicap versus Komodo, but I found out that playing versus engines near your rating is more fun even if they are primitive engine from the late 78 . I am also playing versus Grizzly 1.40 1.b rated 1786 and so far the score is 4 win 2 lost and 2 draw in my favor

[Chessqueen]

Sargon does NOT know the opposition principle, you can view it here and replay what Sargon played.

You are quite correct, Sargon does not know the opposition principle. Sargon doesn't know anything really, it is just a thorough (but hence inefficient and bad) calculator that knows nothing except the basic rules. As you have found, it doesn't even know the less basic rules like three-fold repetition. But Sargon is not quite so bad that it can't CALCULATE the opposition principle, if you give it enough time. From the project page https://github.com/billforsternz/retro-sargon;

"It might sound that extending Sargon's search depth well beyond 6 hasn't been very useful because the exponential growth makes levels beyond 8 or so inaccessible in practice. This would be true if chess stopped in the middlegame, but as more and more pieces come off the board, there are less moves to look at in each position, and Sargon can see deeper in a reasonable time. This is the real beauty of adaptive rather than fixed depth. As a simple example consider the position with White (to play) king on e4, pawn on d4, Black king on d7. A serious human player will instantaneously play Kd5 here, knowing that this is the only way to eventually force pawn promotion. Sargon, with absolutely no chess knowledge, just the ability to calculate variations in search of extra material or board control, plays Kd5 at depth 13 (or more). The PV associated with this move features the pawn queening triumphantly right at the end of the line. It takes 3 minutes and 30 seconds to make the calculation on my computer. It's hardly world shattering but it's vastly beyond the capacity of the original Z80 implementation, and shows what a faster CPU and more memory can do to an otherwise fixed chess calculation algorithm."

You should recognise the position described and the move played as being a basic illustration of seizing the opposition.

Bill how much longer will it take you to correct the repetition bug in Sargon so I can play another 10 games, since Sargon is so close to my rating ?

Well I gave myself "at least a week" on December 31st. I was careful not to make promises. I have actually implemented the fix, as anticipated it was not an easy job. I haven't released it yet because I want to do more testing and polishing. In the meantime I have taken some time out to play some chess in the New Zealand championships which is delaying things. I hope you don't mind. You shouldn't expect too much. Sargon will no longer blindly walk into repetitions unnecessarily, but it hasn't become any more skilled at converting winning positions. It needs either a more sophisticated scoring function or greater calculation depth so that it can see the benefit of penetrating with the king or whatever longer term plan will eventually break the opponent.

In general I appreciate your interest in my project, but I wish you would actually read about what I have done and why (hint: giving you an ideal training partner was not one of my goals ). For example;

Since you have been given permission to work or fix Sargon Try to give it NN or NNU,E and fix the evaluation by giving it an extra 100+ ratings points

Given permission? Did the Spracklens join the Talkchess discussion? NNUE????!?. Actually although NNUE grafted onto Sargon is totally insane, who knows it could even be possible.

This is probably the most interesting game among lower end engine below 2000 Elo. The first 6 move I decided to play it for both engines to study this Villemson Gambit Opening, I did NOT wanted to use a top engine Like Ethereal, or Komodo 13.3, since I wanted to see what engine close to my rating specially Heracles did against Sargon at 6 depth, since Sargon at 8 depth does NOT work good and it takes too much time sometimes 3 minutes to make a single move. Well probably against an engine rated around 1780 to 1790 Sargon can save a draw with this Opening Villemson Gambit. My trainer always say to us students, if you are going to get into any Gambit you better knows all variations and at least calculate up to 10 moves ahead in the middlegame to equalize

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Date "2021.01.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Sargon Depth6"]
[Black "Heracles"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "1986"]
[ECO "C33"]
[Opening "KGA"]
[Time "09:26:03"]
[Variation "Villemson Gambit"]
[WhiteElo "1780"]
[TimeControl "600+10"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "90"]


1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. d4 Qe7 4. Bd3 g5 5. Nf3 Bg7 6. O-O g4 7. Ne5 Qd6 8.
c3 Bxe5 9. dxe5 Qc5+ 10. Kh1 f3 11. gxf3 Ne7 12. fxg4 Nbc6 13. b4 Qxe5 14.
Bf4 Qg7 15. Bxc7 Nxb4 16. Bc4 O-O 17. cxb4 Qxa1 18. Bd6 b5 19. Bxb5 Bb7 20.
Qd3 Qg7 21. Bxe7 Qe5 22. Nc3 Qxe7 23. Kg2 Qxb4 24. Rb1 Qa3 25. Rb3 Qc1 26.
Bxd7 Rab8 27. Qd4 a6 28. Rb6 Qc2+ 29. Kg1 Bxe4 30. Nxe4 Rxb6 31. Qxb6 Qxe4
32. Bf5 Qe1+ 33. Kg2 Re8 34. a4 Qe2+ 35. Qf2 Qc4 36. Qh4 Qc6+ 37. Kf2 Qc5+
38. Kg2 Qd5+ 39. Kg3 Re3+ 40. Kf4 Qe5+ 41. Kg5 f6+ 42. Kh5 Kg7 43. Qf2 Rh3+
44. Qh4 Rxh4+ 45. Kxh4 Qxh2# 0-1[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

I noticed that Sargon was Unable to hold at least a draw, So i decided to play against Heracles but without endgame TB to see if I could beat it, I came close but all that I accomplished was a draw, and I do NOT know how to convert a win with a Queen versus a Rook, which if I remembered correctly as long as the Rook is close to the King it can hold an easy draw Vs my Queen.

[pgn][Event "Testing my Opening"]
[Date "2021.01.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "ChessQueen"]
[Black "Heracles"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "1986"]
[ECO "C33"]
[Opening "KGA"]
[Time "12:14:45"]
[Variation "Villemson Gambit"]
[WhiteElo "1900"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "123"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. d4 Qe7 4. Bd3 g5 5. Nf3 Bg7 6. O-O g4 7. Ne5 Qd6 8.
c3 Bxe5 9. dxe5 Qb6+ 10. Kh1 g3 11. Qg4 Qh6 12. h3 Ne7 13. Bxf4 Qg6 14.
Qxg3 Qxg3 15. Bxg3 Nbc6 16. Bc4 O-O 17. Nd2 a5 18. Rf6 Ng6 19. Nf3 b6 20.
Bb5 Nb8 21. Rd1 c6 22. Bd3 Na6 23. Ng5 Nc5 24. Bc4 Ne6 25. Nxe6 dxe6 26.
Rd6 Ne7 27. a4 Ba6 28. Bxa6 Rxa6 29. h4 Ra7 30. h5 Rc7 31. Bf2 b5 32. axb5
cxb5 33. Rf4 Re8 34. Rg4+ Kh8 35. Bh4 Ng8 36. Rb6 b4 37. cxb4 axb4 38. Rxb4
Rc5 39. Bf2 Rc1+ 40. Kh2 Rf8 41. Rb7 Nh6 42. Rg3 Rc4 43. Be3 Ng8 44. Rg4
Rc6 45. h6 Rcc8 46. Rg7 Rb8 47. Rgxf7 Rxb7 48. Rxb7 Rb8 49. Ra7 Rxb2 50.
Bg5 Re2 51. Bf6+ Nxf6 52. exf6 Kg8 53. Kg3 Rxe4 54. Rxh7 Re3+ 55. Kf2 Kxh7
56. f7 Re5 57. g4 Re4 58. f8=Q Rxg4 59. Qe7+ Kxh6 60. Qxe6+ Rg6 61. Qe5 Rg5
62. Qe6+ Rg6 63. Qe5 Rg5 64. Qe4 Kg7 65. Qe6 Ra5 66. Kf3 Ra3+ 67. Ke2 Ra5
68. Kf2 Rh5 69. Qg4+ Kh6 70. Qe6+ Kg5 71. Kg3 Rh6 72. Qe5+ Kg6 73. Kg4 Kf7
74. Kg5 Re6 75. Qc5 Rg6+ 76. Kf5 Rf6+ 77. Kg5 Rg6+ 78. Kh5 Rg7 79. Qf5+ Ke7
80. Kh6 Rf7 81. Qe5+ Kd7 82. Kg6 Re7 83. Qd5+ Kc7 84. Qc5+ Kd7 85. Qd5+ Kc7
86. Qc5+ Kd7 87. Qd5+ {3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Bill Forster]

If you have NOT released it yet. it has to be because you are making other change.

...

NOTE: Can you make it part of the engines that comes with Tarrasch GUI https://www.triplehappy.com/

I don't know why you would make assumptions. When I release Sargon 1978 V1.01 it I will announce it right here in this thread. As I mentioned earlier, I wanted to do more testing and that testing of my repetition "fix" revealed a viper's nest of issues. This is not surprising, in software development, everything is always more complicated than you expect it to be.

As mentioned earlier, please don't expect too much of the repetition fix. The repetition problem is not so much a bug as a reflection of the limitations of chess software of the time. And my fix is not so much a fix as a work around. Sargon will not magically become an aggressive finisher, it will just resist making an immediate draw. If its position is not overwhelming this might mean it just dithers, failing to make progress. It might make for a *worse* user experience as this could be more frustrating to experience than an immediate draw.

I am making a couple of other changes that will definitely be net positives though. If you specify a fixed depth I will no longer iterate to that depth (seemed a good idea at the time). Instead I will go directly to the depth, which will be a significant speed up. Also if Sargon 1978 calculates a forced mate it will play down the forced mate PV if given the opportunity. This will solve a different problem (to the repetition problem) where Sargon 1978 sometimes dallies even when it has a forced mate.

Hopefully I will release before the end of the weekend.

Also Sargon 1978 V1.00 is already part of the latest release of the Tarrasch Chess GUI.