How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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jefk
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: the Netherlands
Full name: Jef Kaan

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by jefk »

CQ
maybe Nakamura should have talked a little bit less, and have
thought a bit more about a plan how to play with such handicap;
btw Piranha nowadays is rated approx 2000...

LK
lots of coverage of handicap chess, both between humans and in engine vs human games, in my soon-to-be published book "Chess Board Options". In my opinion, the most important question regarding handicap chess is which handicap or handicaps should fill the large gap between f7 odds and b1 (or g1) odds
whereby i don't like the extra move odds (too much deviation from
chess rules), i think by combination of b/w odds (like eg f2/c7 (*))
such gaps can be filled. Maybe you should mention 'Fair-Chess' in your
book !? just a suggestion (apparently you didn't look at it and indeed
it should be (and will be updated a little); and unfortunately the
zillions game doesn't seem to be supported anymore, but you can download
a free trial (huh maybe ask a certain Mark Lefler, for example :)

Btw we don't have chess clubs here in schools in NL like eg in Russia
and apparently sometimes in the USA (except for some exceptions maybe);
chess is still regarded here as something for nerds, apparently.

(*) which will give an 'equal' game (getting rid of the White advantage_
better than Armageddon chess i would suggest. just my 2cnts
Chessqueen
Posts: 5582
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen »

jefk wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:53 pm CQ

maybe Nakamura should have talked a little bit less, and have
thought a bit more about a plan how to play with such handicap;
btw Piranha nowadays is rated approx 2000...
Itf could be with a newer version but I downloaded this version Piranha 0.5 long time ago and this is the CCRL Blitz rating

http://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/cgi/e ... anha%200.5

Piranha 0.5 in CCRL Blitz, 2021-02-07
Ponder off, General book up to 12 moves, up to 6 piece EGTB
Time control: From Jan 2020, equivalent to 2'+1" on an Intel i7-4770K. See the "about" page.
Tested by CCRL team, 2005-2021, http://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/

CCRL Blitz main list:
Piranha 0.5 is #601 with rating of 1499 Elo points (+10 -10),
based on 4891 games: 1776 wins, 2427 losses and 688 draws
Score: 43.3%, Average opponent: +57.5, Draws: 14.1%

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_20090216_x64_modern"]
[Black "Piranha rated 1499"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "1499"]
[Time "10:30:44"]
[WhiteElo "3490"]
[TimeControl "900+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/1P1PPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. Nf3 Nc6 2. d4 e6 3. e4 d5 4. e5 Nh6 5. Bxh6 gxh6 6. Bb5 Bb4+ 7. Kf1 Bd7
8. Bxc6 Bxc6 9. g3 O-O 10. h4 f6 11. h5 fxe5 12. Nxe5 Bb5+ 13. Kg2 Qg5 14.
Rh4 Qd2 15. Qxd2 Bxd2 16. Rhh1 Be2 17. f4 Rf5 18. Ra2 Bxh5 19. Ra3 Kh8 20.
Rb3 Rg8 21. Kf2 b6 22. Nc6 Rgf8 23. Rd3 Ba5 24. b4 Be8 25. Nxa5 bxa5 26.
bxa5 R5f6 27. Rc3 c6 28. Rb3 Rg8 29. Rb7 Rg7 30. a6 h5 31. Rb8 Rg8 32. Ra8
Rfg6 33. Rxh5 Rxg3 34. Rxe8 Rg2+ 35. Kf3 Rg3+ 36. Kf2 Rg2+ 37. Kf3 Rg3+ 38.
Kf2 {3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
Do NOT worry and be happy, we all live a short life :roll:
Chessqueen
Posts: 5582
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen »

Chessqueen wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:02 pm
jefk wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:53 pm CQ

maybe Nakamura should have talked a little bit less, and have
thought a bit more about a plan how to play with such handicap;
btw Piranha nowadays is rated approx 2000...
Itf could be with a newer version but I downloaded this version Piranha 0.5 long time ago and this is the CCRL Blitz rating

http://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/cgi/e ... anha%200.5

Piranha 0.5 in CCRL Blitz, 2021-02-07
Ponder off, General book up to 12 moves, up to 6 piece EGTB
Time control: From Jan 2020, equivalent to 2'+1" on an Intel i7-4770K. See the "about" page.
Tested by CCRL team, 2005-2021, http://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/404/

CCRL Blitz main list:
Piranha 0.5 is #601 with rating of 1499 Elo points (+10 -10),
based on 4891 games: 1776 wins, 2427 losses and 688 draws
Score: 43.3%, Average opponent: +57.5, Draws: 14.1%

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_20090216_x64_modern"]
[Black "Piranha rated 1499"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "1499"]
[Time "14:06:27"]
[WhiteElo "3480"]
[TimeControl "900+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "143"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. a3 Bg4 6. d3 Qf6 7. Rf1 h6 8.
h3 Bxf3 9. Qxf3 Qxf3 10. Rxf3 Nf6 11. Rf1 O-O-O 12. Rf5 b6 13. Be3 a5 14.
g4 Bd6 15. Ke2 Kb7 16. a4 Kb8 17. Raf1 Ka8 18. Kd1 Rd7 19. Kc1 Kb8 20. b3
Ba3+ 21. Kb1 Bd6 22. Ka2 Kc8 23. Kb1 Kb8 24. Kc1 Kb7 25. Kb2 c5 26. R5f3
Be7 27. Rf5 Bd6 28. Bd2 Ka8 29. Be3 c6 30. Bd2 Bc7 31. Bc1 Kb7 32. Bd2 Kc8
33. Be3 Rd6 34. Kc3 Kb8 35. Kb2 Kb7 36. Ka2 Kc8 37. Bc1 Rd7 38. Kb1 Kb8 39.
Be3 Kc8 40. Kc1 Rd6 41. Bd2 Kb8 42. Be1 Re8 43. Kb1 Rde6 44. Kb2 Bd8 45.
Bd2 Ka8 46. Kc1 Rd6 47. Be1 g6 48. R5f2 Ree6 49. Bd2 g5 50. Rf5 Re8 51. Kd1
Rde6 52. Bc3 Kb8 53. Kd2 b5 54. axb5 cxb5 55. Bb2 h5 56. gxh5 Nxh5 57. Rxf7
Nf4 58. c4 b4 59. Rf3 Rh6 60. Rf5 Bc7 61. Rxg5 Nxh3 62. Rgf5 Nf4 63. R3xf4
exf4 64. Rxc5 Rh2+ 65. Kc1 Rg8 66. Kb1 Rg1+ 67. Bc1 Rhh1 68. Kb2 Rxc1 69.
Rb5+ Kc8 70. Rg5 f3 71. Rg8+ Kb7 72. Rg5 {White resigns} *[/pgn]
Do NOT worry and be happy, we all live a short life :roll:
lkaufman
Posts: 5960
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman »

Uri Blass wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:27 pm
lkaufman wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:29 am
Chessqueen wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:34 pm
jefk wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:59 pm a bit more info about chess handicaps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_(chess)
here's a bit more from the historical perspective:
http://www.edochess.ca/batgirl/odds-giving.html

Uri Blass claimed in this forum he can beat most
chess players with queen plus double rook odds.
(but then includes unrated players). well there are|
players who hardly know the rules, so it might be true.

As for ratings vs material odds, it's a better idea to look
at rating ratio (vs difference) so Nakamura vs 1400 is
2.0 ratio, but that's also for a 1200 vs 600 player. Queens odds?
maybe , but that is approx 8.5 points and to get a more
balanced game maybe other material odds also can be
applied (eg. rook plus bishop odds instead of queen).
A matter of trial and error, but then again, accuracy isn't
so important i guess, because i think of a self-correcting
system (of rating ratio's). More simple would be just
differences for rating 'classes' as superGM, GM, IM, NM
A,B,C etc. players
I just found out that Stockfish latest version can NOT beat TTE rated around 1480 with a Queen Odds at TC 60'+1" Probably the latest version of Komodo can, since Larry Kaufman gave special instructions to play with Odds, but it has to be tested :roll:
I have found that in a typical Elementary School chess club, only the top 10-15% are able to beat me with queen and two rooks handicap, the average such kid needs another knight or even two knights removed as well to have a chance. Usually the best player in the school needs about queen and knight odds, though of course occasionally some school has a kid who can win at queen odds.
Yes, it does make some sense to use the ratio of ratings for handicaps, although ratings are inherently linear, because the frequency and magnitude of errors declines as ratings rise, so knight odds for example equates to a much higher win percentage at GM level than at novice level.
I have lots of coverage of handicap chess, both between humans and in engine vs human games, in my soon-to-be published book "Chess Board Options". In my opinion, the most important question regarding handicap chess is which handicap or handicaps should fill the large gap between f7 odds and b1 (or g1) odds. The historical answer was "pawn and two moves", but even with this one included the gap to knight odds is still quite large, and even "pawn and three" still leaves a pretty sizable gap to knight odds.
1)What are the ages in typical elementary school chess club?
I know that in israel elementary school is usually between ages 7-12 when 7 is first grade and 12 is 6th grade.

2)I wonder about the meaning of the top 10-15% that are able to beat you with queen and 2 rooks handicap.
The top 10-15% of what group do you mean?

The top 10-15% of children who play in some chess club that you visit may be different than the top 10-15% of children who know the chess rules and
may be different than the top 10-15% of the children that part of them even do not know the chess rules.
In the USA nowadays Elementary school finishes with 5th grade, so the chess clubs are ages 6 to 10 (or 11 late in the school year). The group I refer to is those who choose to join a chess club; they should in theory know the rules, although of course some of the young ones will forget details like en passant at times. Not all schools have chess clubs; those which do tend to be good schools.
Komodo rules!
lkaufman
Posts: 5960
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman »

jefk wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:53 pm CQ
maybe Nakamura should have talked a little bit less, and have
thought a bit more about a plan how to play with such handicap;
btw Piranha nowadays is rated approx 2000...

LK
lots of coverage of handicap chess, both between humans and in engine vs human games, in my soon-to-be published book "Chess Board Options". In my opinion, the most important question regarding handicap chess is which handicap or handicaps should fill the large gap between f7 odds and b1 (or g1) odds
whereby i don't like the extra move odds (too much deviation from
chess rules), i think by combination of b/w odds (like eg f2/c7 (*))
such gaps can be filled. Maybe you should mention 'Fair-Chess' in your
book !? just a suggestion (apparently you didn't look at it and indeed
it should be (and will be updated a little); and unfortunately the
zillions game doesn't seem to be supported anymore, but you can download
a free trial (huh maybe ask a certain Mark Lefler, for example :)

Btw we don't have chess clubs here in schools in NL like eg in Russia
and apparently sometimes in the USA (except for some exceptions maybe);
chess is still regarded here as something for nerds, apparently.

(*) which will give an 'equal' game (getting rid of the White advantage_
better than Armageddon chess i would suggest. just my 2cnts
Is there someplace on the Web that lists all the handicaps you propose as "Fair-Chess"? All I found was a general description. If not perhaps you can list them here. In particular, what handicaps do you list between f7 odds and b1 odds?
Komodo rules!
Chessqueen
Posts: 5582
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:39 am
jefk wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:53 pm CQ
maybe Nakamura should have talked a little bit less, and have
thought a bit more about a plan how to play with such handicap;
btw Piranha nowadays is rated approx 2000...

LK
lots of coverage of handicap chess, both between humans and in engine vs human games, in my soon-to-be published book "Chess Board Options". In my opinion, the most important question regarding handicap chess is which handicap or handicaps should fill the large gap between f7 odds and b1 (or g1) odds
whereby i don't like the extra move odds (too much deviation from
chess rules), i think by combination of b/w odds (like eg f2/c7 (*))
such gaps can be filled. Maybe you should mention 'Fair-Chess' in your
book !? just a suggestion (apparently you didn't look at it and indeed
it should be (and will be updated a little); and unfortunately the
zillions game doesn't seem to be supported anymore, but you can download
a free trial (huh maybe ask a certain Mark Lefler, for example :)

Btw we don't have chess clubs here in schools in NL like eg in Russia
and apparently sometimes in the USA (except for some exceptions maybe);
chess is still regarded here as something for nerds, apparently.

(*) which will give an 'equal' game (getting rid of the White advantage_
better than Armageddon chess i would suggest. just my 2cnts
Is there someplace on the Web that lists all the handicaps you propose as "Fair-Chess"? All I found was a general description. If not perhaps you can list them here. In particular, what handicaps do you list between f7 odds and b1 odds?
I knew that picking the f2 pawn + the b1 Knight was unfair for Stockfish, but I only did this After Komodo13.3 beat Pigeon 1.5.1 and Cdrill rated close to 1800 by CCRL, which clearly tell me that Komodo knows how to handle Odds much better than Stockfish, it also beat me which I am ashame to post it here :roll: :mrgreen:
Do NOT worry and be happy, we all live a short life :roll:
Chessqueen
Posts: 5582
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen »

Well since I mentioned it I feel that I owed you to post this game where Komodo 13.3 with contempt = 180 beat Pigeon rated 1836. If you feel that you want to see the Log file I will post it.

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Black "Pigeon-1.5.1 rated 1836"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "1836"]
[Time "10:28:42"]
[WhiteElo "3470"]
[TimeControl "900+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "66"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. e3 Nf6 3. b3 Nc6 4. Bb5 Qd6 5. Bb2 Bg4 6. Qe2 Ne4 7. O-O a6 8.
Bxc6+ bxc6 9. Qe1 f6 10. d3 Ng5 11. Nxg5 fxg5 12. Rc1 h5 13. h3 Bd7 14. c4
g4 15. h4 a5 16. c5 Qg6 17. e4 a4 18. Qb4 dxe4 19. dxe4 axb3 20. axb3 Qh6
21. Be5 Qe3+ 22. Kh1 Kd8 23. Bxc7+ Kxc7 24. Ra1 Rb8 25. Ra7+ Kc8 26. Qa5
Qg3 27. Rd1 Rb5 28. Ra8+ Qb8 29. Qa7 Be6 30. Rxb8+ Rxb8 31. Qa6+ Kc7 32.
Qa5+ Kc8 33. Qd8+ Kb7 {Black resigns} *[/pgn]
Do NOT worry and be happy, we all live a short life :roll:
jefk
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: the Netherlands
Full name: Jef Kaan

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by jefk »

mr LK wrote:
Is there someplace on the Web that lists all the handicaps you propose as "Fair-Chess"? All I found was a general description. If not perhaps you can list them here. In particular, what handicaps do you list between f7 odds and b1 odds?
the Fair-hess (FC) system is found in the download here
(with a zillions (*) prototype)
https://sourceforge.net/projects/fairchess/

but it needs to be updated, as i see it know, working with
rating ratio, it could be something like this:
The higher rated player will play with White just like
in simultaneous exhibitions; at equal rating, White's f2
pawn is removed, and Black's c7 pawn (i checked such
a setup with two Nnue engines and this handicap combination
seems to compensate the White advantage pretty well.

As for your question regarding a gap between f7 and b1 handicap,
well imho we can use different combinations of pawns/pieces
Below at various higher levels or rating for White a description
of handicaps vs rating ratio;s as i would currently suggest:
(should be worked out later in a bit more detail)
so currently i have something like :
---------------------------------------------------------
White higher rating :
a) White 1.15x higher rating only f2 removed (not the c7 pawn)
b) White approx 1.3 higher rating, f2 and c3 removed
c) White approx 1.45 higher rating knight b1 removed
d) White .. 1.6 higher rating knight b1 and f2 removed
e) .. .. 1.75 .. .. knt b1 f2 and c3 and f2 removed
f) .. .. 1.9 .. .. rook a1, and f2 removed
g) .. .. >2.1 .. .. knight b1, c2, and f1 (bishop) removed
------------------------------------------------------
NB this is tentative, and although i intend to update
my Zillions rule-file for FC in such a way, i don't claim it's
accurate but it's a first trial, and my intention is to update
it in several steps, possibly with your cooperation and/or
suggestions (especially regarding the handicaps

As for time odds, or move odds, i prefer to keep it simple,
as i now am going to explain to 'cornfed' in another thread...

(*) the zillions program seems to be abandonware (**), although
there's still a demo for download available
(**) considering the discussion regarding Fritz532, i guess i
shouldn't include a (my) registration nr for Zillions in the
download although it would make sense for people who would like
to test it (for longer than the zillions trial period ..)
Zillions is much easier for developing testing slight deviations of
a chess variant than eg, winboard so i some way it's a pity
that it's not sold anymore; maybe they simply should make
it freeware, just a little hint :)
lkaufman
Posts: 5960
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by lkaufman »

jefk wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:56 am mr LK wrote:
Is there someplace on the Web that lists all the handicaps you propose as "Fair-Chess"? All I found was a general description. If not perhaps you can list them here. In particular, what handicaps do you list between f7 odds and b1 odds?
the Fair-hess (FC) system is found in the download here
(with a zillions (*) prototype)
https://sourceforge.net/projects/fairchess/

but it needs to be updated, as i see it know, working with
rating ratio, it could be something like this:
The higher rated player will play with White just like
in simultaneous exhibitions; at equal rating, White's f2
pawn is removed, and Black's c7 pawn (i checked such
a setup with two Nnue engines and this handicap combination
seems to compensate the White advantage pretty well.

As for your question regarding a gap between f7 and b1 handicap,
well imho we can use different combinations of pawns/pieces
Below at various higher levels or rating for White a description
of handicaps vs rating ratio;s as i would currently suggest:
(should be worked out later in a bit more detail)
so currently i have something like :
---------------------------------------------------------
White higher rating :
a) White 1.15x higher rating only f2 removed (not the c7 pawn)
b) White approx 1.3 higher rating, f2 and c3 removed
c) White approx 1.45 higher rating knight b1 removed
d) White .. 1.6 higher rating knight b1 and f2 removed
e) .. .. 1.75 .. .. knt b1 f2 and c3 and f2 removed
f) .. .. 1.9 .. .. rook a1, and f2 removed
g) .. .. >2.1 .. .. knight b1, c2, and f1 (bishop) removed
------------------------------------------------------
NB this is tentative, and although i intend to update
my Zillions rule-file for FC in such a way, i don't claim it's
accurate but it's a first trial, and my intention is to update
it in several steps, possibly with your cooperation and/or
suggestions (especially regarding the handicaps

As for time odds, or move odds, i prefer to keep it simple,
as i now am going to explain to 'cornfed' in another thread...

(*) the zillions program seems to be abandonware (**), although
there's still a demo for download available
(**) considering the discussion regarding Fritz532, i guess i
shouldn't include a (my) registration nr for Zillions in the
download although it would make sense for people who would like
to test it (for longer than the zillions trial period ..)
Zillions is much easier for developing testing slight deviations of
a chess variant than eg, winboard so i some way it's a pity
that it's not sold anymore; maybe they simply should make
it freeware, just a little hint :)
You give one handicap between pawn and knight, namely c2 +f2 (you wrote c3 + f2 but that's an obvious typo). That's fine, but not nearly enough steps for serious play. We found that at Rapid the c2 + f2 handicap was not enough even for Hikaru Nakamura vs. Komodo Dragon; he scored 1/2 out of 2 at that, and just 1.5 out of 8 at similar two pawn handicaps in total. But at the same Rapid time control (15' + 10"), I am at least even with Dragon at knight odds. The gap between me and Hikaru in Rapid play is probably about 700 elo points. So the difference between these two handicaps is more than that (at this level), maybe 900 elo or so. Clearly we need steps in between for use in matches between Dragon and human GMs. The obvious ones are various two Black pawn handicaps and various three White pawn handicaps, and/or knight for pawn handicaps. But taking too many pawns off really changes the game, much more so than removing a knight. Not sure what is best.
Komodo rules!
Chessqueen
Posts: 5582
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:56 pm
jefk wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:56 am mr LK wrote:
Is there someplace on the Web that lists all the handicaps you propose as "Fair-Chess"? All I found was a general description. If not perhaps you can list them here. In particular, what handicaps do you list between f7 odds and b1 odds?
the Fair-hess (FC) system is found in the download here
(with a zillions (*) prototype)
https://sourceforge.net/projects/fairchess/

but it needs to be updated, as i see it know, working with
rating ratio, it could be something like this:
The higher rated player will play with White just like
in simultaneous exhibitions; at equal rating, White's f2
pawn is removed, and Black's c7 pawn (i checked such
a setup with two Nnue engines and this handicap combination
seems to compensate the White advantage pretty well.

As for your question regarding a gap between f7 and b1 handicap,
well imho we can use different combinations of pawns/pieces
Below at various higher levels or rating for White a description
of handicaps vs rating ratio;s as i would currently suggest:
(should be worked out later in a bit more detail)
so currently i have something like :
---------------------------------------------------------
White higher rating :
a) White 1.15x higher rating only f2 removed (not the c7 pawn)
b) White approx 1.3 higher rating, f2 and c3 removed
c) White approx 1.45 higher rating knight b1 removed
d) White .. 1.6 higher rating knight b1 and f2 removed
e) .. .. 1.75 .. .. knt b1 f2 and c3 and f2 removed
f) .. .. 1.9 .. .. rook a1, and f2 removed
g) .. .. >2.1 .. .. knight b1, c2, and f1 (bishop) removed
------------------------------------------------------
NB this is tentative, and although i intend to update
my Zillions rule-file for FC in such a way, i don't claim it's
accurate but it's a first trial, and my intention is to update
it in several steps, possibly with your cooperation and/or
suggestions (especially regarding the handicaps

As for time odds, or move odds, i prefer to keep it simple,
as i now am going to explain to 'cornfed' in another thread...

(*) the zillions program seems to be abandonware (**), although
there's still a demo for download available
(**) considering the discussion regarding Fritz532, i guess i
shouldn't include a (my) registration nr for Zillions in the
download although it would make sense for people who would like
to test it (for longer than the zillions trial period ..)
Zillions is much easier for developing testing slight deviations of
a chess variant than eg, winboard so i some way it's a pity
that it's not sold anymore; maybe they simply should make
it freeware, just a little hint :)
You give one handicap between pawn and knight, namely c2 +f2 (you wrote c3 + f2 but that's an obvious typo). That's fine, but not nearly enough steps for serious play. We found that at Rapid the c2 + f2 handicap was not enough even for Hikaru Nakamura vs. Komodo Dragon; he scored 1/2 out of 2 at that, and just 1.5 out of 8 at similar two pawn handicaps in total. But at the same Rapid time control (15' + 10"), I am at least even with Dragon at knight odds. The gap between me and Hikaru in Rapid play is probably about 700 elo points. So the difference between these two handicaps is more than that (at this level), maybe 900 elo or so. Clearly we need steps in between for use in matches between Dragon and human GMs. The obvious ones are various two Black pawn handicaps and various three White pawn handicaps, and/or knight for pawn handicaps. But taking too many pawns off really changes the game, much more so than removing a knight. Not sure what is best.
I was wondering if Komodo can give a Knight to GM Smeldon at TC 3'+1" and get at least a Draw
Do NOT worry and be happy, we all live a short life :roll: