How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

[MonteCarlo]

Stash 27.0 is over 3000 on CCRL blitz, so being stronger than MVL at anything, much less playing the superior side in odds, is not surprising.

Top humans were much inferior to engines in faster time controls well before engines reached the level of today's 3000 CCRL blitz.

Cheers!

[Chessqueen]

Stash 27.0 is over 3000 on CCRL blitz, so being stronger than MVL at anything, much less playing the superior side in odds, is not surprising.

Top humans were much inferior to engines in faster time controls well before engines reached the level of today's 3000 CCRL blitz.

Cheers!

I know but GM Nakamura and MVL are over 3100 in Blitz, here is with a different2 pawns Odds, here is a game versus GM Nakamura with the b2 and g2 pawns Odds or missing


[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.17"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Black "Stash-27.0-windows-x86_64"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3000"]
[Time "07:56:39"]
[WhiteElo "3480"]
[TimeControl "600+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/P1PP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "72"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Be3 Nc6 4. Bb5 Nf6 5. O-O Bd7 6. c4 dxc4 7. Bxc4 a6
8. Nc3 Bb4 9. Bd2 O-O 10. a3 Be7 11. Bd3 Bc8 12. Be3 b6 13. Ne4 Nd5 14. Qc2
Bb7 15. Bd2 h6 16. Rfe1 Qd7 17. Qb2 Rfd8 18. h3 Rab8 19. Rad1 Qe8 20. Bb1
Na7 21. Ne5 Qa4 22. Bxh6 gxh6 23. Qe2 Bf8 24. Qg4+ Bg7 25. Nxf7 Kf8 26. Ne5
Ne7 27. Rd3 Nf5 28. Ba2 Bd5 29. Nc3 Qa5 30. Qg6 Bxe5 31. Rxe5 Bxa2 32. d5
Rd7 33. Qxe6 Re7 34. Qxf5+ Rf7 35. Qe6 Qxd5 36. Nxd5 Bxd5 {Black resigns} *[/pgn]

[MonteCarlo]

3100 blitz for a human on some online site is not stronger than a 3000 CCRL blitz engine just because the absolute number is higher.

The absolute numbers from different rating systems with different player pools are not directly comparable.

Top humans like Naka or MVL would likely lose by very large margins in blitz to most engines that are around 3000 CCRL blitz; their high chess.com ratings would not save them.

Stash 27.0 is still much weaker than Komodo, so I'm sure it will lose games even with some large-ish odds.

My only point was that Stash 27.0 performing better than MVL at some chess task isn't all that surprising (mostly responding to the "WOW" in your post about that).

Cheers!

[Chessqueen]

Cq, one game isn't enough to say one engine is stronger,
further more 2.e5 wasn't a good (book?) move against the Scandinavian,
maybe it was in Kom's book with 3 pct chance or so dunno.

Once we have Stash Nnue we'll see again

talking about computer chess nostalgia like Socrates, i've once
been an operator for this engine in a single game, in The Hague during
one of the Aegon comp-vs (grand)master events (slow time controls).
Didn't know much about chess during that time, but remember it,
my opponent writer /chess player Tim Krabbe managed to lose
with a Petroff defense, his site still is here:
https://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess/chess.html
So yes, Socrates then started with 1.e4 (during that time had no idea
who (the late) Don Daily or Larry Kaufman were, btw)

I was NOT talking about Stash NNUE, but here is another game, and here is the game that GM Nakamura lost with two pawns Odds.I do NOT believe that Stockfish can beat Stash 27.0 with the same Odds that I posted previously


[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.17"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Black "Stash-27.0-windows-x86_64"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3000"]
[Time "09:14:06"]
[WhiteElo "3480"]
[TimeControl "600+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/P1PP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "64"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Be3 Nc6 4. Bb5 Nf6 5. O-O Bd7 6. c4 dxc4 7. Bxc4 a6
8. Nc3 Bb4 9. Bd2 O-O 10. a3 Bd6 11. Bg5 h6 12. Bh4 Na5 13. Bd3 g5 14. Nxg5
hxg5 15. Bxg5 Bc6 16. d5 exd5 17. Qf3 d4 18. Ne4 Bxe4 19. Bxe4 Be7 20. Rfe1
Qd6 21. Bf5 Nc6 22. Bf4 Qc5 23. Qg3+ Kh8 24. Qh4+ Kg8 25. Qg5+ Kh8 26. Rad1
Rae8 27. Qh4+ Kg8 28. Qg3+ Kh8 29. Qh3+ Kg8 30. Rd3 Qxf5 31. Qxf5 Nh7 32.
Re4 Bh4 {Black resigns} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.17"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_20090216_x64_modern"]
[Black "Stash-27.0-windows-x86_64"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "3000"]
[Time "10:07:12"]
[WhiteElo "3480"]
[TimeControl "600+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pp1ppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "103"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 d6 7. c3 Be7 8.
Qe2 O-O 9. Rd1 Qc7 10. d4 Bd7 11. Bg5 Rfe8 12. dxe5 dxe5 13. Bxf6 Bxf6 14.
Nd2 Nd8 15. Nf1 Ne6 16. Ne3 Nf4 17. Qc2 Bg5 18. Kh1 Rad8 19. a4 Qc5 20.
axb5 Bxb5 21. Bd5 Nxd5 22. Nxd5 Bc6 23. c4 a5 24. f3 a4 25. b4 axb3 26.
Qxb3 Ra8 27. Rxa8 Rxa8 28. Qb2 Qxc4 29. h4 Bd8 30. Qxe5 Bxh4 31. Ne7+ Bxe7
32. Qxe7 h6 33. Rd8+ Rxd8 34. Qxd8+ Kh7 35. Qc7 Bd5 36. Qf4 Be6 37. Qd2 g5
38. Qd6 g4 39. Qf4 gxf3 40. Qxf3 Qc1+ 41. Kh2 Qg5 42. Kg1 h5 43. Qd3 h4 44.
Qf3 h3 45. Qf2 hxg2 46. Qf3 Kg6 47. Qd3 Qg4 48. Qc2 Kg5 49. Qc5+ Kf4 50.
Qc1+ Kxe4 51. Qc2+ Ke5 52. Qc5+ {White resigns} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

At least Stockfish 13 does NOT lose as bad as Stockfish 12 like in the previous game

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.20"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_13_win_x64_modern"]
[Black "Stash-27.0-windows-x86_64-modern"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "3000"]
[Time "09:50:01"]
[WhiteElo "3480"]
[TimeControl "600+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pp1ppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "165"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 b5 5. Bd5 Bd6 6. a4 Qa5+ 7. Bd2 b4 8.
Ba2 O-O 9. O-O Bc5 10. h3 Ba6 11. Rc1 Rac8 12. Bg5 Be7 13. Qd2 h6 14. Bxh6
gxh6 15. Qxh6 Ne8 16. Bd5 Qb6 17. Ng5 Bxg5 18. Qxg5+ Ng7 19. c3 bxc3 20.
bxc3 Bxd3 21. Rfe1 Kh7 22. Rcd1 Bc2 23. Rc1 Bxa4 24. Ra1 Bc2 25. Qh4+ Kg8
26. Re3 Rfe8 27. Rf3 Nd8 28. Rg3 Ne6 29. Qf6 Qd8 30. Qh6 Re7 31. Rxa7 Rb8
32. c4 Qf8 33. f3 d6 34. Rxe7 Qxe7 35. Rg4 Re8 36. Kh1 Bb1 37. Kg1 Bd3 38.
Kh2 Bc2 39. Kh1 Bd3 40. Kh2 Qc7 41. c5 dxc5 42. Rh4 Kf8 43. Qf6 Kg8 44. Qh6
f5 45. Qg6 fxe4 46. fxe4 Qd7 47. Qg3 Bb5 48. Qg6 Bd3 49. Qg3 c4 50. Rh6 Re7
51. Qh4 Re8 52. Qg3 Qd6 53. Rg6 Kf8 54. Qh4 Qd7 55. Rf6+ Kg8 56. Qg3 Kh7
57. Qh4+ Kg8 58. Qg3 Be2 59. Rh6 Qd6 60. Kh1 c3 61. Qxc3 Bb5 62. Kh2 Bd7
63. Qd3 Qf8 64. Qg3 Qf4 65. Qxf4 exf4 66. g3 fxg3+ 67. Kxg3 Rc8 68. h4 Rc3+
69. Kg2 Kf7 70. h5 Ke7 71. Bxe6 Nxe6 72. Rh7+ Kd6 73. e5+ Kc6 74. Rf7 Rh3
75. Rf1 Rxh5 76. Rc1+ Kd5 77. Rd1+ Nd4 78. e6 Bxe6 79. Re1 Kd6 80. Kg3 Rg5+
81. Kf2 Bd5 82. Rd1 Ke5 83. Kf1 {White resigns} *[/pgn]

[lkaufman]

At least Stockfish 13 does NOT lose as bad as Stockfish 12 like in the previous game

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.20"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_13_win_x64_modern"]
[Black "Stash-27.0-windows-x86_64-modern"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "3000"]
[Time "09:50:01"]
[WhiteElo "3480"]
[TimeControl "600+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pp1ppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "165"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 b5 5. Bd5 Bd6 6. a4 Qa5+ 7. Bd2 b4 8.
Ba2 O-O 9. O-O Bc5 10. h3 Ba6 11. Rc1 Rac8 12. Bg5 Be7 13. Qd2 h6 14. Bxh6
gxh6 15. Qxh6 Ne8 16. Bd5 Qb6 17. Ng5 Bxg5 18. Qxg5+ Ng7 19. c3 bxc3 20.
bxc3 Bxd3 21. Rfe1 Kh7 22. Rcd1 Bc2 23. Rc1 Bxa4 24. Ra1 Bc2 25. Qh4+ Kg8
26. Re3 Rfe8 27. Rf3 Nd8 28. Rg3 Ne6 29. Qf6 Qd8 30. Qh6 Re7 31. Rxa7 Rb8
32. c4 Qf8 33. f3 d6 34. Rxe7 Qxe7 35. Rg4 Re8 36. Kh1 Bb1 37. Kg1 Bd3 38.
Kh2 Bc2 39. Kh1 Bd3 40. Kh2 Qc7 41. c5 dxc5 42. Rh4 Kf8 43. Qf6 Kg8 44. Qh6
f5 45. Qg6 fxe4 46. fxe4 Qd7 47. Qg3 Bb5 48. Qg6 Bd3 49. Qg3 c4 50. Rh6 Re7
51. Qh4 Re8 52. Qg3 Qd6 53. Rg6 Kf8 54. Qh4 Qd7 55. Rf6+ Kg8 56. Qg3 Kh7
57. Qh4+ Kg8 58. Qg3 Be2 59. Rh6 Qd6 60. Kh1 c3 61. Qxc3 Bb5 62. Kh2 Bd7
63. Qd3 Qf8 64. Qg3 Qf4 65. Qxf4 exf4 66. g3 fxg3+ 67. Kxg3 Rc8 68. h4 Rc3+
69. Kg2 Kf7 70. h5 Ke7 71. Bxe6 Nxe6 72. Rh7+ Kd6 73. e5+ Kc6 74. Rf7 Rh3
75. Rf1 Rxh5 76. Rc1+ Kd5 77. Rd1+ Nd4 78. e6 Bxe6 79. Re1 Kd6 80. Kg3 Rg5+
81. Kf2 Bd5 82. Rd1 Ke5 83. Kf1 {White resigns} *[/pgn]

I believe that SF 13 will use NNUE at knight odds or less, whereas for SF 12 it was only at 2 pawn odds or less that NNUE kicked in at the start. So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.

[jefk]

LK

So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.

yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

For rating ratio's between 1.2 and 1.3, the knight handicap may
work (or possibly also one pawn less, eg. b7)

Just a few games are not much to be sure enough...

As for checking the value of the handicap for the initial position,
whereby one pawn in eval should be approx 200 Elo or so,
when i load Dragon without b1 and Black without c7, i get
around minus 3.5 p eval, so this would be 700 or so.
Which confirms it's still a large handicap. Removing f7 gives
minus 3,1 and when i also remove a7, i get minus 2.5,
so the latter may be a better solution for top-engine vs
the Stash type, and i don't have to look at combination(s)
with exchanges (yet); possibly (later) for larger rating ratio's.

(i'll later check with SFNnue, and/or KomodoMcts.

Playing around with such values i'll be able to produce a table
with suggested handicaps for different classes or ration ratio's.

For those who don't like variants or handicap's, setting up handicap
positions (eg. rook vs pawn plus one move or so) was already available
in my old fritzGui version 11, but not with suggested corresponding
rating ratios. Not such a big innovation, but with the willingness of
some Gm's to play against a top engine as Dragon (only) with a handicap
for Dragon, some more structure seems desirable; also possibly for
play at much lower rating levels, eg. home players vs club players,
as i earlier suggested. No big deal is it.

[Chessqueen]

LK

So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.

yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

You missed my post a few days ago where Komodo version 13.3 NOT the latest Dragon which is two newer version beat Stash 27.0, but against a GM Human like Nakamura rated around 3100 in Blitz, Dragon needs to play Bullets games since in time control of 5'+2" Naka could possibly beat Dragon with a Knight Odds.

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.17"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Black "Stash-27.0-windows-x86_64"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3000"]
[Time "09:14:06"]
[WhiteElo "3480"]
[TimeControl "600+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/P1PP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "64"]


1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Be3 Nc6 4. Bb5 Nf6 5. O-O Bd7 6. c4 dxc4 7. Bxc4 a6
8. Nc3 Bb4 9. Bd2 O-O 10. a3 Bd6 11. Bg5 h6 12. Bh4 Na5 13. Bd3 g5 14. Nxg5
hxg5 15. Bxg5 Bc6 16. d5 exd5 17. Qf3 d4 18. Ne4 Bxe4 19. Bxe4 Be7 20. Rfe1
Qd6 21. Bf5 Nc6 22. Bf4 Qc5 23. Qg3+ Kh8 24. Qh4+ Kg8 25. Qg5+ Kh8 26. Rad1
Rae8 27. Qh4+ Kg8 28. Qg3+ Kh8 29. Qh3+ Kg8 30. Rd3 Qxf5 31. Qxf5 Nh7 32.
Re4 Bh4 {Black resigns} *[/pgn]

[lkaufman]

LK

So now it's valid to compare SF 13 and Dragon in terms of which can give knight odds to some weaker but still very strong (in human terms) engine.

yep, and apparently it's (still?) hard for Dragon (or SFnnue) to play
with knight odds against the weaker engine, even with the c7 pawn less
(probably due to a method of exchanging as much as possible and
winning the endgame). Maybe it would be more equal with another
pawn removed, the f7 pawn, or otherwise two pawns, maybe c7
and b7. If this wouldn''t work, an exchange handicap plus a pawn
handicap may be an idea, so e.g Dragon without a1 rook,
Stash without b8 or c8, and Dragon also without b2 or c2.
As for rating ratio, i suppose it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.2 ,
(for Stash more near 1.2 i suppose).

You missed my post a few days ago where Komodo version 13.3 NOT the latest Dragon which is two newer version beat Stash 27.0, but against a GM Human like Nakamura rated around 3100 in Blitz, Dragon needs to play Bullets games since in time control of 5'+2" Naka could possibly beat Dragon with a Knight Odds.

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.17"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Black "Stash-27.0-windows-x86_64"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3000"]
[Time "09:14:06"]
[WhiteElo "3480"]
[TimeControl "600+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/P1PP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "64"]


1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Be3 Nc6 4. Bb5 Nf6 5. O-O Bd7 6. c4 dxc4 7. Bxc4 a6
8. Nc3 Bb4 9. Bd2 O-O 10. a3 Bd6 11. Bg5 h6 12. Bh4 Na5 13. Bd3 g5 14. Nxg5
hxg5 15. Bxg5 Bc6 16. d5 exd5 17. Qf3 d4 18. Ne4 Bxe4 19. Bxe4 Be7 20. Rfe1
Qd6 21. Bf5 Nc6 22. Bf4 Qc5 23. Qg3+ Kh8 24. Qh4+ Kg8 25. Qg5+ Kh8 26. Rad1
Rae8 27. Qh4+ Kg8 28. Qg3+ Kh8 29. Qh3+ Kg8 30. Rd3 Qxf5 31. Qxf5 Nh7 32.
Re4 Bh4 {Black resigns} *[/pgn]

The key point seems to be that knight odds should be thought of as four pawn odds, roughly double the two pawn handicap. Even knight for pawn is a three pawn handicap. Also based on some research I did a while ago, an engine rated CCRL blitz 3000 would probably score more than 95% against Nakamura in blitz or even in fast Rapid; I think I concluded that Nakamura would only get something like 2200 or so if he played under CCRL blitz conditions with the engines. It is not reasonable to expect any engine to give knight odds or even knight for pawn to a player 800 elo stronger than Nakamura in blitz.