Are neural nets (the weights file) copyrightable?

[gonzochess75]

[Moderation] It seems that there are copies of the FF2 network offered for free download. As far as my understanding of the law goes, this counts as a breach of copyright law. Hence the TalkChess forum forbids posting links to those downloads.

Please do not post such links again.

I think for this reason you should disallow any and all links to Houdini, Fire, FF2, or other copyright disputed work on talk chess.

[hgm]

The claim that data would not be copyrightable is obviously false. MP3 or WAV files are data for a media player, but they are covered by the copyright of the song they represent, and copying them without licence is an infringement. PGN or JPEG files are covered by the copyrights of the photograph they represent, even though they are data to a photoviewer.

Whether the NNUE is code or not is not really relevant. Code can be data too, e.g. in the case of an interpreter or 'just in time' compiler for an interpreted language like JavaScript or Java. A GPL'ed interpreter / compiler can be used for compiling Java or JavaScript with another license without any problem, and for user convenience distributed together with the code it is going to interpret.

[hgm]

[Moderation] It seems that there are copies of the FF2 network offered for free download. As far as my understanding of the law goes, this counts as a breach of copyright law. Hence the TalkChess forum forbids posting links to those downloads.

Please do not post such links again.

I think for this reason you should disallow any and all links to Houdini, Fire, FF2, or other copyright disputed work on talk chess.

Are you aware of any links that offer downloads for binaries of the mentioned engines in this forum? We remove links to Eman here...

[Ferdy]

The following thought occurred to me... if Chessbase is claiming that the FF2 weights file is not subject to the GPLv3 that is tantamount to saying that the weights file is not subject to copyright.

If that is the case, then what is stopping anyone from buying FF2 and distributing the net/weights file around or putting it up on an FTP to download for free? If the nets/weights file is not copyrightable, then FF2/AS does not have copyright to it.

It is a double edged sword saying that the net is not subject to GPLv3!

Chessbase is based from Germany, the protection with regards to ai there may not be underestimated.

[gonzochess75]

[Moderation] It seems that there are copies of the FF2 network offered for free download. As far as my understanding of the law goes, this counts as a breach of copyright law. Hence the TalkChess forum forbids posting links to those downloads.

Please do not post such links again.

I think for this reason you should disallow any and all links to Houdini, Fire, FF2, or other copyright disputed work on talk chess.

Are you aware of any links that offer downloads for binaries of the mentioned engines in this forum? We remove links to Eman here...

I am aware of links to chessbase which offer downloads for binaries the SF project believe violate their copyright: https://blog.stockfishchess.org/post/64 ... at-fritz-2

See the recent thread which links to chessbase article.

[gonzochess75]

The claim that data would not be copyrightable is obviously false. MP3 or WAV files are data for a media player, but they are covered by the copyright of the song they represent, and copying them without licence is an infringement. PGN or JPEG files are covered by the copyrights of the photograph they represent, even though they are data to a photoviewer.

Whether the NNUE is code or not is not really relevant. Code can be data too, e.g. in the case of an interpreter or 'just in time' compiler for an interpreted language like JavaScript or Java. A GPL'ed interpreter / compiler can be used for compiling Java or JavaScript with another license without any problem, and for user convenience distributed together with the code it is going to interpret.

The data in question is not the work of a human author nor is a creative work. It is data that was authored by a computer program. And again, if it *is* a copyrightable work, then it is derivative of SF and subject to the requirements of GPLv3.

[hgm]

Animated movies nowadays are output of a computer program. That doesn't mean they are free of copyrights...

[hgm]

I am aware of links to chessbase which offer downloads for binaries the SF project believe violate their copyright: https://blog.stockfishchess.org/post/64 ... at-fritz-2

See the recent thread which links to chessbase article.

Well, what the SF project believes doesn't seem very relevant. In fact I expect them to be sued soon by ChessBase, for defamation. And I don't want the same thing to happen to us.

[gonzochess75]

Animated movies nowadays are output of a computer program. That doesn't mean they are free of copyrights...

But those are the works of human authors and creative works. They're also not derivative works of GPL'd software. But suit yourself to a double standard.

[Cornfed]

Animated movies nowadays are output of a computer program. That doesn't mean they are free of copyrights...

But those are the works of human authors and creative works. They're also not derivative works of GPL'd software. But suit yourself to a double standard.

Yes, people are groping for things to use against Chessbase/Silver.

I think some see Chessbase as using SF/ GPL to make a buck off of (as is doable under the GPL) and wondering 'Why didn't I do that?

The main difference - Fritz is a GUI that actually makes use of all this stuff. It is (apparently) easy to tweak SF and build your own 'net'...but all that is pretty pointless for the masses if they do not have a good/useful GUI to run it in. This GUI, is what you pay for in the end. If you want to run another engine/net...you are free to. And free to complain...