How many of you believe that Stockfish 12 or Komodo can give a rook Odds to a 1450 engine ?

[Chessqueen]

Yeah, a few quick points.

1. As I said clearly already, Stash 27.0 is still quite a bit weaker than Komodo, so I know it will lose some games.

2. Some of the moves in that game Stash 27.0 switches from quickly for me, so either your machine is very slow and/or the TC was faster than the Naka match, both of which would likely decrease the weaker player's chances.

3. As Larry mentioned, that was not one of the odds from that match.

4. Nowhere have I ever said that there will be no example of something a human might do better than Stash 27.0, especially as a one-off.

My only points have been these, which are in no way affected by the game you posted.

1. Stash 27.0 is ~3000 CCRL blitz, so it shouldn't be surprising if it can outperform strong humans at some chess tasks

2. A human like Naka is a big underdog in blitz against ~3000 CCRL engines; his 3000+ chess.com blitz rating is not relevant.

For that matter, a single game is also not "proof" that Naka is stronger than Stash 27.0. I've won individual games against a lot of much stronger players, and even that isn't what happened here.

Cheers!

The time control was NOT quicker and my machine is an Intel Core i3 8350K which is just slightly slower than the one used by CCRL to test Stash 27.0, but in reality it does NOT matter since both Komodo and Stach 27 used the same machine. Another point that you should consider is that in the game that I pointed out GM Nakamura Vs Komodo Nakamura was playing with just the f7 pawn Odds, whereas, I gave Stash 27.0 an Extra pawn the c7 + f7 pawn Odds.

CCRL 40/15 Rating List — All engines (best versions only) (Quote)

Ponder off, General book (up to 12 moves), 3-4-5 piece EGTB
Time control: Equivalent to 40 moves in 15 minutes on an Intel i7-4770k.
Computed on February 20, 2021 with Bayeselo based on 1'218'554 games
Color legend: Commercial, Free, Open source, Private.
Bold font - tested with 200 games or more. Normal font - less than 200 games.


67 Stash 27.0 64-bit 2992 +31 −31 50.2% −1.5 44.2% 328
67.4%
68‑69 FabChess 1.16 64-bit 2983 +20 −20 56.8% −47.7 42.8% 811
50.8%
68‑69 Scorpio 2.8 64-bit 4CPU 2983 +25 −25 48.8% +7.0 46.3% 492

[MonteCarlo]

I'm not going to belabor the point after this, since I prefer not to get sucked into an xkcd Duty Calls situation.

First, it was f7 and an extra move in addition to being white (so pawn and two moves in standard odds-speak), not just f7.

Second, I explained why speed and TC would matter; I didn't say it was unfair. In general, faster TCs benefit the stronger player, so I'd expect more losses from the weaker player receiving odds.

Finally, I never said Stash 27.0 couldn't lose to Komodo 13.3 at odds. I said the opposite, that I was sure it would lose some games.

None of this changes my two main points.

Cheers!

[Chessqueen]

I'm not going to belabor the point after this, since I prefer not to get sucked into an xkcd Duty Calls situation.


Finally, I never said Stash 27.0 couldn't lose to Komodo 13.3 at odds. I said the opposite, that I was sure it would lose some games.

None of this changes my two main points.

Cheers!

[Chessqueen]

I'm not going to belabor the point after this, since I prefer not to get sucked into an xkcd Duty Calls situation.

First, it was f7 and an extra move in addition to being white (so pawn and two moves in standard odds-speak), not just f7.

Second, I explained why speed and TC would matter; I didn't say it was unfair. In general, faster TCs benefit the stronger player, so I'd expect more losses from the weaker player receiving odds.

Finally, I never said Stash 27.0 couldn't lose to Komodo 13.3 at odds. I said the opposite, that I was sure it would lose some games.

None of this changes my two main points.

Cheers!

This is the statement that I do NOT agree with you, and I would bet $1000.00 that GM Nakamura can beat Stash 27 in Blitz which is only rated around 3034 which I believe the CCRL Blitz rating is inflated by 150 in comparison to Top human Blitz ratings, so they would be very close . You Mentioned that Top humans like Naka or MVL would likely lose by very large margins in blitz to most engines that are around 3000 CCRL blitz; their high chess.com ratings would not save them.

The time control was NOT quicker and my machine is an Intel Core i3 8350K which is just slightly slower than the one used by CCRL to test Stash 27.0, but in reality it does NOT matter since both Komodo and Stash 27 used the same machine. Another point that you should consider is that in the game that I pointed out GM Nakamura Vs Komodo Nakamura was playing with just the f7 pawn Odds, whereas, I gave Stash 27.0 an Extra pawn the c7 + f7 pawn Odds.


CCRL Blitz Rating List — All engines (best versions only) (Quote)
Ponder off, General book up to 12 moves, up to 6 piece EGTB
Time control: From Jan 2020, equivalent to 2'+1" on an Intel i7-4770K. See the "about" page.
Computed on February 20, 2021 with Bayeselo based on 2'464'260 games


70 Stash 27.0 64-bit 3034 +19 −19 54.4% −28.7 37.5% 915
50.8%
71 Bagatur 2.1 64-bit 4CPU 3033 +25 −25 47.7% +15.1 46.9% 475
56.2%

[Chessqueen]

I'm not going to belabor the point after this, since I prefer not to get sucked into an xkcd Duty Calls situation.

First, it was f7 and an extra move in addition to being white (so pawn and two moves in standard odds-speak), not just f7.

Second, I explained why speed and TC would matter; I didn't say it was unfair. In general, faster TCs benefit the stronger player, so I'd expect more losses from the weaker player receiving odds.

Finally, I never said Stash 27.0 couldn't lose to Komodo 13.3 at odds. I said the opposite, that I was sure it would lose some games.

None of this changes my two main points.

Cheers!

This is the statement that I do NOT agree with you, and I would bet $1000.00 that GM Nakamura can beat Stash 27 in Blitz which is only rated around 3034 which I believe the CCRL Blitz rating is inflated by 150 in comparison to Top human Blitz ratings, so they would be very close . You Mentioned that Top humans like Naka or MVL would likely lose by very large margins in blitz to most engines that are around 3000 CCRL blitz; their high chess.com ratings would not save them.

The time control was NOT quicker and my machine is an Intel Core i3 8350K which is just slightly slower than the one used by CCRL to test Stash 27.0, but in reality it does NOT matter since both Komodo and Stash 27 used the same machine. Another point that you should consider is that in the game that I pointed out GM Nakamura Vs Komodo Nakamura was playing with just the f7 pawn Odds, whereas, I gave Stash 27.0 an Extra pawn the c7 + f7 pawn Odds.


CCRL Blitz Rating List — All engines (best versions only) (Quote)
Ponder off, General book up to 12 moves, up to 6 piece EGTB
Time control: From Jan 2020, equivalent to 2'+1" on an Intel i7-4770K. See the "about" page.
Computed on February 20, 2021 with Bayeselo based on 2'464'260 games

80 Invictus r305 64-bit 4CPU 3003 +13 −13 48.4% +10.2 45.3% 1857
75.6%
81 Scorpio 2.8 64-bit 4CPU 2995 +17 −18 42.4% +50.3 36.8% 1101
7

Here it is against Invictus 305 rated 3003, whereas GM Nakamura held a draw with the same f7 odds

[pgn][Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.23"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Invictus.r305.non-pext"]
[Black "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "3480"]
[Time "06:30:22"]
[WhiteElo "3003"]
[TimeControl "600+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "55"]


1. e4 c5 2. Qh5+ g6 3. Qxc5 e6 4. Qe3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bh6 6. Qa3 d5 7. Nc3 Bf8
8. Qa4 d4 9. Nb5 e5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Nc7+ Kf7 12. Nxa8 Nf6 13. Qb5 Bd6 14.
f4 Nc6 15. Bc4+ Kg7 16. e5 Re8 17. O-O Nxe5 18. fxe5 Rxe5 19. Qa4 Rh5 20.
h3 Qe7 21. d3 Bxh3 22. gxh3 Rxh3 23. Qxa7 Rg3+ 24. Kh1 Qd7 25. Rf5 Qxf5 26.
Qxb7+ Kh8 27. Qg7+ Kxg7 28. Bh6+ {White resigns} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Even with the Extra c7 pawn taken off just like Stash 27.0 these two engines were NOT a match for Komodo 13.3. Do NOT try this with Stockfish 13, since it will NOT beat Stash 27 nor invictus r305

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.23"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Invictus.r305.non-pext"]
[Black "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "3470"]
[Time "13:18:12"]
[WhiteElo "3003"]
[TimeControl "600+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pp1pp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "117"]


1. e4 Qa5 2. a3 e6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. c4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Be2 d6 7. O-O Bg4 8.
b4 Qd8 9. d3 Be7 10. Be3 O-O 11. d4 Qe8 12. d5 Nd8 13. Nh4 Bd7 14. Nf5 Bxf5
15. exf5 Nf7 16. Qc2 Qd7 17. Rfe1 a6 18. Rad1 Rac8 19. h3 Qd8 20. a4 Qd7
21. a5 Kh8 22. Kh1 h6 23. f3 Nh5 24. Bf2 Nf4 25. Na4 Bd8 26. Bf1 Ng5 27. h4
Nxf3 28. gxf3 Rc7 29. Nb6 Qe8 30. Be3 g5 31. fxg6 Nxg6 32. Bh3 Rxf3 33. Bg4
Rg3 34. Qe4 Qe7 35. Bg5 hxg5 36. Qxg6 Qh7 37. Qe8+ Kg7 38. Qh5 Qc2 39. Rg1
Qe4+ 40. Kh2 Rxg1 41. Rxg1 Rf7 42. Bh3 Rf2+ 43. Bg2 g4 44. Kh1 g3 45. Na4
Bf6 46. Nb6 Qf4 47. Re1 Rc2 48. Nd7 Rc1 49. Qe2 Qxh4+ 50. Kg1 Rxc4 51. Bf3
Bg5 52. Qg2 Rc3 53. Bd1 Be3+ 54. Kf1 e4 55. Nf8 Kxf8 56. Re2 Qf4+ 57. Ke1
Rc1 58. b5 Bf2+ 59. Rxf2 {White resigns} *[/pgn]

[lkaufman]

Even with the Extra c7 pawn taken off just like Stash 27.0 these two engines were NOT a match for Komodo 13.3. Do NOT try this with Stockfish 13, since it will NOT beat Stash 27 nor invictus r305

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.23"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Invictus.r305.non-pext"]
[Black "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "3470"]
[Time "13:18:12"]
[WhiteElo "3003"]
[TimeControl "600+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pp1pp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "117"]


1. e4 Qa5 2. a3 e6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. c4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Be2 d6 7. O-O Bg4 8.
b4 Qd8 9. d3 Be7 10. Be3 O-O 11. d4 Qe8 12. d5 Nd8 13. Nh4 Bd7 14. Nf5 Bxf5
15. exf5 Nf7 16. Qc2 Qd7 17. Rfe1 a6 18. Rad1 Rac8 19. h3 Qd8 20. a4 Qd7
21. a5 Kh8 22. Kh1 h6 23. f3 Nh5 24. Bf2 Nf4 25. Na4 Bd8 26. Bf1 Ng5 27. h4
Nxf3 28. gxf3 Rc7 29. Nb6 Qe8 30. Be3 g5 31. fxg6 Nxg6 32. Bh3 Rxf3 33. Bg4
Rg3 34. Qe4 Qe7 35. Bg5 hxg5 36. Qxg6 Qh7 37. Qe8+ Kg7 38. Qh5 Qc2 39. Rg1
Qe4+ 40. Kh2 Rxg1 41. Rxg1 Rf7 42. Bh3 Rf2+ 43. Bg2 g4 44. Kh1 g3 45. Na4
Bf6 46. Nb6 Qf4 47. Re1 Rc2 48. Nd7 Rc1 49. Qe2 Qxh4+ 50. Kg1 Rxc4 51. Bf3
Bg5 52. Qg2 Rc3 53. Bd1 Be3+ 54. Kf1 e4 55. Nf8 Kxf8 56. Re2 Qf4+ 57. Ke1
Rc1 58. b5 Bf2+ 59. Rxf2 {White resigns} *[/pgn]

I think that you are confirming what I've found many times in the past, which is that normal (A/B) engines are much worse at exploiting a handicap than top human players are. Nakamura played a lot of blitz games with Komodo personalities recently, for which I had approximate CCRL blitz ratings based on playing them against CCRL blitz engines at suitable ratings. My conclusion was that at fast blitz, Nakamura would only get a CCRL blitz rating of something like 2200 (shocking, I know). Yet it seems that 3000 ccrl rated engines are not better than Nakamura at exploiting a handicap. Of course some of this is due to Nakamura being aware that he only needs to find good moves, not "best" moves, but still the difference seems hard to explain. I'm about even with Dragon at "fast rapid" (10' + 5") knight odds, but I think I'm only something like 1800 or so on CCRL blitz scale at that time limit, and I think an engine needs a lot more than 1800 to be competitive with Dragon at knight odds at 10' + 5". So I don't think this is anything specific to one person, it's a general difference between human and engine play.

[Chessqueen]

Larry stated " I'm about even with Dragon at "fast rapid" (10' + 5") knight odds, but I think I'm only something like 1800 or so on CCRL blitz scale at that time limit, and I think an engine needs a lot more than 1800 to be competitive with Dragon at knight odds at 10' + 5". So I don't think this is anything specific to one person, it's a general difference between human and engine play."

Here is a game against Snowy rated 1978. I am almost certain that you can beat Snowy rated 1978 or even BikJump rated 2000 by CCRL but it play horribly the endgame without EGTB

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Black "Snowy_0_2_x64"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "1978"]
[Time "16:09:20"]
[WhiteElo "3470"]
[TimeControl "600+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "62"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. d4 e6 3. e3 Nc6 4. a3 d5 5. b4 a6 6. c4 Be7 7. Qc2 dxc4 8.
Bxc4 O-O 9. O-O b5 10. Bd3 Bb7 11. Bb2 Rc8 12. e4 h6 13. Rfd1 Re8 14. Bc3
g5 15. d5 exd5 16. exd5 Nxd5 17. Bh7+ Kf8 18. Be4 Nb8 19. Bxd5 Bxd5 20. Qh7
f6 21. Qxh6+ Kf7 22. Nxg5+ fxg5 23. Rxd5 Rf8 24. Qh5+ Ke6 25. Re1+ Kxd5 26.
Qg6 Kc4 27. Qe4+ Kb3 28. Rb1+ Kxc3 29. Rc1+ Kb3 30. Qc2+ Kxa3 31. Qc3+ Ka4
{Black resigns} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Here is a knight Odds very tactical game against BiKJump rated 2103


[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Black "Bikjump"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2103"]
[Time "19:57:47"]
[WhiteElo "3470"]
[TimeControl "6000+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "77"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. Nf3 Nc6 2. e4 d5 3. e5 Bg4 4. d4 Bxf3 5. gxf3 Qd7 6. c3 O-O-O 7. b4 e6
8. Bd3 f6 9. f4 Nh6 10. O-O Nf5 11. a4 Be7 12. a5 Rdf8 13. b5 Nb8 14. f3
fxe5 15. fxe5 c5 16. Rb1 cxd4 17. cxd4 Qc7 18. b6 axb6 19. axb6 Qc6 20. Rf2
Nxd4 21. Be3 Bc5 22. Kh1 Kd8 23. Ra2 Nxf3 24. Bb5 Qxb6 25. Be2 Qc6 26. Bxc5
Qxc5 27. Bxf3 Qc6 28. Ra8 Ke7 29. Ra7 Rd8 30. Qg1 Kf8 31. Raxb7 Nd7 32. Rf1
Kg8 33. Qg5 Re8 34. Bh5 Qa6 35. Rg1 g6 36. Bxg6 Kf8 37. Qh6+ Ke7 38. Qg7+
Kd8 39. Qxd7# 1-0[/pgn]

[lkaufman]

Here is a knight Odds very tactical game against BiKJump rated 2103


[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2021.02.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit"]
[Black "Bikjump"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2103"]
[Time "19:57:47"]
[WhiteElo "3470"]
[TimeControl "6000+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "77"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. Nf3 Nc6 2. e4 d5 3. e5 Bg4 4. d4 Bxf3 5. gxf3 Qd7 6. c3 O-O-O 7. b4 e6
8. Bd3 f6 9. f4 Nh6 10. O-O Nf5 11. a4 Be7 12. a5 Rdf8 13. b5 Nb8 14. f3
fxe5 15. fxe5 c5 16. Rb1 cxd4 17. cxd4 Qc7 18. b6 axb6 19. axb6 Qc6 20. Rf2
Nxd4 21. Be3 Bc5 22. Kh1 Kd8 23. Ra2 Nxf3 24. Bb5 Qxb6 25. Be2 Qc6 26. Bxc5
Qxc5 27. Bxf3 Qc6 28. Ra8 Ke7 29. Ra7 Rd8 30. Qg1 Kf8 31. Raxb7 Nd7 32. Rf1
Kg8 33. Qg5 Re8 34. Bh5 Qa6 35. Rg1 g6 36. Bxg6 Kf8 37. Qh6+ Ke7 38. Qg7+
Kd8 39. Qxd7# 1-0[/pgn]

Actually I have played Bikjump (on my super-fast i-9 10 core 20 thread laptop), and while I may have scored in Rapid, I have very little chance in blitz or near-blitz (10' + 5") against it. Yet I will score much better than Bikjump taking knight odds from Dragon. This is what I'm talking about. I know to "keep it simple" when up a knight, Bikjump doesn't know that.