Goodbye Talkchess

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Rolf
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Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Rolf » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:06 pm

bob wrote:Let Graham and Sam enjoy moderating each other when this finally falls apart....
I am sure that Steven Schwartz would have stopped the noise for the illegal engines, Sam and Grah are two very thoughtful and mature persons, and I say this although they had differing opinions to my own. Their mastership could be described as follows, they have a somewhat consitant mindframe and dont change it every seasons, in other words it's impossible to corrupt them.

Although I admire the US practice of openess in science which led to the opensource model, I fear that even Americans didnt quite understand that this concept has limits. Look into the military for example. A community shouldnt follow nonsense that leads to suicide. Academics should understand that.

I had many months now trying to understand two questions. Why Bob supported the Ippo development? I didnt find a solution. When would Rybka 4 be a success: only with a plus Elo of 150? Here I found out that the question is already stupid. Because there is no absolute value of a software update in computerchess when the strength is mostly defined by hardware. A chess software for 36 € which leads all rankings and wins all tournaments is IMO better than open engines on lower ranks. For those in chess who must know what the God's moves are they must have the strongest Rybka 4 on clusters. Top GM and corr players. It's crazy that many interested wrongly assumed that the strength of a software could be seen as hardware-independant!

I wish that at least all the academics who have the better hardware in their brain will come back soon to the forum, that was also in that respect state of the art in computerchess. IMO the actual situation was initiated by outcasting the World Champ Vas Rajlich 5 years ago plus then the dirty campaign against Rybka. Let's come back to a new chapter with respect for ethical bases. The motto should be: No support for criminal attempts by invisible cowards!

P.S. It's self-understanding that I want to mention the sad event from Leiden when Larry Kaufman had to go to the clinic. Let us all wish him well, because beyond all the conflicts in the community we shouldnt forget that we are all only humans and no machines. Let's treat us mutually with care so that we can enjoy our hobby as older seniors as long as possible.

I wish you all the best and may sanity and creativity be with you.

Rolf
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

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Sam Hull
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Re: Goodbye Talkchess?

Post by Sam Hull » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:13 pm

Edward German wrote:Lieber Sam Hull!

Entschuldigen Sie mein schlechtes englisch. Darum poste ich meine message in deutsch (original) und schlecht übersetzt auf English.

Ich habe persönlich nichts gegen Sie, und auch nichts gegen Graham Banks.
Ich bin auch gerne bereit zu vergeben. Und wenn Missverständnisse dazu geführt haben, dann um so mehr will ich vergeben.

Das aber kann nicht die ganze Wahrheit gewesen sein.

Ich habe hier vor 4 Tagen ein Spiel von Rybka 4 gezeigt, wo R4 am Ende ein Matt in 2 Zügen nicht sieht!

Das Posting stand 3 Tage lang hier im Hauptforum, und dennoch hat niemand von den 960 Members mir eine Analyse von R4 gezeigt.
Das ist traurig meinen Sie nicht auch?

Dann ist Graham gekommen, und hat dann mein Posting nur wegen wenigen Zeilen einer Analyse der Engine Houdini, ins Forum "Engine Orgins" verschoben.

Ich war sehr überrascht, um ehrlich zu sein sogar, zunächst war ich sogar geschockt!

Dort dann, in dem geschlossenen Forum, musste ich auch noch warten bis irgendwann einer von 960 (!) CCC Members eine magere analyse von R4 mir gezeigt hat.

Ich persönlich finde das absolut nicht normal für ein Forum wie dieses mit 960 Members! Oder?

Ich bin sehr traurig,
Eduard

ENGLISH:

Dear Sam Hull!

Excuse my bad english. That is why I post my message in German (original) and poorly translated to English.

I personally have nothing against you, and nothing against Graham Banks.
I am also willing to forgive. And when misunderstandings have led to, then the more I want to forgive.

But this may not have been the whole truth.

I've shown here before four days a game by Rybka 4, and R4 at the end does not see a Mate in 2 moves!

The Posting stood for 3 days here in the main forum, and yet nobody of the 960 CCC Members showed me an analysis by R4. This is sad do not you too?

Then Graham has come, and then only because of my posting a few lines of an analysis of the engine Houdini, the forum "Engine Orgins" moved.

I was very surprised to be honest even, at first I was even shocked!

There, then, in the closed forum, I had to wait until some one of 960 (!) CCC Members let me show only a poor analysis by R4.

I personally find that absolutely not normal for a forum like this with 960 Members! Or?

I am very sad,
Eduard
Hi Eduard,

As I mentioned above, I think some moderation was performed based on a misunderstanding. I have asked the CCC mods to look at your posts and make a reply to your questions here.

Thanks,
-Sam-

Milos
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Milos » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:16 pm

Rolf wrote:I am sure that Steven Schwartz would have stopped the noise for the illegal engines, Sam and Grah are two very thoughtful and mature persons...
Oh noooo, Rolf is back. Now CCC is really doomed... :(

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AdminX
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by AdminX » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:19 pm

Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:Let Graham and Sam enjoy moderating each other when this finally falls apart....
I am sure that Steven Schwartz would have stopped the noise for the illegal engines, Sam and Grah are two very thoughtful and mature persons, and I say this although they had differing opinions to my own. Their mastership could be described as follows, they have a somewhat consitant mindframe and dont change it every seasons, in other words it's impossible to corrupt them.

Although I admire the US practice of openess in science which led to the opensource model, I fear that even Americans didnt quite understand that this concept has limits. Look into the military for example. A community shouldnt follow nonsense that leads to suicide. Academics should understand that.

I had many months now trying to understand two questions. Why Bob supported the Ippo development? I didnt find a solution. When would Rybka 4 be a success: only with a plus Elo of 150? Here I found out that the question is already stupid. Because there is no absolute value of a software update in computerchess when the strength is mostly defined by hardware. A chess software for 36 € which leads all rankings and wins all tournaments is IMO better than open engines on lower ranks. For those in chess who must know what the God's moves are they must have the strongest Rybka 4 on clusters. Top GM and corr players. It's crazy that many interested wrongly assumed that the strength of a software could be seen as hardware-independant!

I wish that at least all the academics who have the better hardware in their brain will come back soon to the forum, that was also in that respect state of the art in computerchess. IMO the actual situation was initiated by outcasting the World Champ Vas Rajlich 5 years ago plus then the dirty campaign against Rybka. Let's come back to a new chapter with respect for ethical bases. The motto should be: No support for criminal attempts by invisible cowards!

P.S. It's self-understanding that I want to mention the sad event from Leiden when Larry Kaufman had to go to the clinic. Let us all wish him well, because beyond all the conflicts in the community we shouldnt forget that we are all only humans and no machines. Let's treat us mutually with care so that we can enjoy our hobby as older seniors as long as possible.

I wish you all the best and may sanity and creativity be with you.

Rolf
Off Topic,

But Rolf no insult is intended when I say I thought you were a bot. This is the 1st time I have understood what you have said word for word! Your English has really improved! :D Keep up the good writing!
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Harvey Williamson » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:22 pm

Rolf wrote: P.S. It's self-understanding that I want to mention the sad event from Leiden when Larry Kaufman had to go to the clinic. Let us all wish him well, because beyond all the conflicts in the community we shouldnt forget that we are all only humans and no machines. Let's treat us mutually with care so that we can enjoy our hobby as older seniors as long as possible.

I wish you all the best and may sanity and creativity be with you.

Rolf
I can tell you that Larry is on the mend. He is actually playing Chess on his iPod and with a Novag machine someone gave him. Hopefully he will be well enough to fly home in a few days time.

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Rolf
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Rolf » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:24 pm

Thanks Harvey this is great.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

Hood
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Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Hood » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:26 pm

sockmonkey wrote:Hi,

I am finished with talkchess.com. The site administration and my co-moderator Graham Banks have made it impossible for me to continue as a moderator, and in a more extended sense, as a member of this community. Before I explain my reasons for leaving: I am starting a new, free, uncensored, (though unconditionally non-warez) computer chess site -- OpenChess -- which can be found at http://www.open-chess.org/ -- effective immediately. I hope that, with time, it will become a valuable alternative to talkchess.com, but without commercial influence over content, and without biased moderation or censorship of discussions in progress. I encourage anyone with an interest in computer chess, everyone who desires a forum where free, uncensored, tolerant discourse is possible, engine authors as well as testers and end-users, to join. There's not much there yet, but that's just a matter of time and your participation. As we populate and organize OpenChess, your suggestions are welcome.

To my reasons... The moderation team was informed yesterday by the site administrator, Sam Hull, that the site owners, Your Move Chess & Games/ICD, want the moderation team to aggressively remove links and any posts which could be seen as "encouragement to acquire software of questionable legitimacy". "Software of questionable legitimacy" obviously refers to the engines derived from the source code known as I--- (I censor myself here to avoid being banned to the CEO forum by Graham), and the request was justified by the various commercial partnerships which YMC&G/ICD maintains. The immediate consequence of this new directive was that Graham dumped a number of threads into the hidden Chess Engine Origins forum, including several posts which merely mention the engines in question. Most objectionable to me was a post which simply reproduced a couple of lines of analysis output from one of the questionable engines -- the problem was apparently that the clone's analysis was more accurate than Rybka 4's.

Graham has no doubt in his mind about the meaning of "encouragement" or "promotion" -- it means any positive or neutral mention of the existence of said software (insults are fine, of course). He's never made any bones about his personal agenda vis a vis the "clone" engines, nor his disdain and intolerance for anyone who demands evidence for the claims which have been made against them. This bias has been a source of tension and disagreement within the moderation team (with one or two regrettable public incidents) for the entire term. Graham, who's done zero moderation of talkchess in the last month and half out of protest against open discussion of these engines, got back in the saddle last night when he heard the good news and started purging. When I protested, my attempts at discussion or compromise were refused. In fact, Graham was only willing to discuss whether the "clones" would be removed from the Tournaments sub-forum, as well.

I ran for moderator on a platform of open, civil discussion. The newest developments make open discussion at talkchess.com de facto impossible. Never mind that there is overwhelming technical evidence demonstrating that IPPOLIT and friends are NOT clones (at least as a counterpoint to the significant circumstantial evidence in favor of them being clones). Never mind the principle by which accusations should be backed up with evidence before they are taken seriously, or used as the basis for decisions to censor or banish discussion. Never mind that "the posts on the Computer-Chess Club message board do not necessarily agree (nor disagree) with the opinions of Your Move Chess & Games, I.C.D. Corporation, or Computer Chess Reports, and these companies do not control, and have no say in, what is posted or how it is posted. Nor do any of these organizations have any say or control over decisions made by the moderators." That's from the Charter, in case you missed the reference.

If it has really come to this, where, in violation of talkchess.com's own charter, Your Move Chess & Games/ICD can influence forum content in favor of their commercial interests, where moderators feel smugly justified simply censoring threads and posts which contain mention of or factual data (analysis output!) regarding or generated by undesired software, then I cannot stay here. I am not a salesman -- as moderator, it's not my job to help YMC&G/ICD move their merchandise. Nor am I a nanny -- it's not my job to protect forum members or visitors from legal, freely available, relevant, topical information or discussion with one another. And I do not want my name associated with a community which hinders, suppresses, deletes or censors discussion, or with moderators who feel comfortable bullying and alienating "illegitimate" users.

So, once again, goodbye, talkchess. I apologize to anyone that I am letting down by abandoning my months-long effort to keep Graham away from your posts, but I've been undermined by the administration and will not continue to roll this proverbial stone up the proverbial mountain. I hope to see you on OpenChess soon (http://www.open-chess.org/).

Taking the high road regards,
Jeremy
Thank you. It is very sad.
Rgds Hood
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

Steve B
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Steve B » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:28 pm

AdminX wrote:
This is the 1st time I have understood what you have said word for word! Your English has really improved! :D Keep up the good writing!
That still doesn't stop Rolf's premise from being totally wrong though

i have known Steve S since he opened shop back in 1984 selling dedicated chess computers
i lived within a short driving distance from his shop
met him several times in person and spoke frequently on the phone with him in the intervening years

and i was around right after the board started here
Steve S. never interfered in what was posted here and he took no "Uberlord" position about anything that went on here
he agreed to host the board in return for his banner on the top of the page..period

others around at the time of the boards formation can testify to this as well i imagine

More Understandable but wrong nevertheless regards
Steve

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AdminX
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by AdminX » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:35 pm

Steve B wrote:
AdminX wrote:
This is the 1st time I have understood what you have said word for word! Your English has really improved! :D Keep up the good writing!
That still doesn't stop Rolf's premise from being totally wrong though

i have known Steve S since he opened shop back in 1984 selling dedicated chess computers
i lived within a short driving distance from his shop
met him several times in person and spoke frequently on the phone with him in the intervening years

and i was around right after the board started here
Steve S. never interfered in what was posted here and he took no "Uberlord" position about anything that went on here
he agreed to host the board in return for his banner on the top of the page..period

others around at the time of the boards formation can testify to this as well i imagine

More Understandable but wrong nevertheless regards
Steve
I understand your point, but I am still shocked I understood his English for the 1st time! :shock: :lol: I really use to think he might be a bot that people were responding to. I really don't mean that as a insult either.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Robert Flesher
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Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Robert Flesher » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:00 pm

Graham Banks wrote:
Sam Hull wrote: (a) Sorry for weighing in late. Our downtown Dallas office building has lost power and shut down my entire network two business days in a row, and I couldn't get back to the board after posting the guidance from Quentin for the CCC mods until now.

(b) There has been a rather large misunderstanding, and Jeremy has slightly misquoted what I passed along from ICD/Your Move. The guidance is simply to not tolerate anything that looks like a LINK to illegitimate software in CCC. No one said anything about censoring discussions or removing posts that simply make allusions or offer evaluations. Graham misunderstood the intent of the guidance - I have clarified it in detail for him this evening via IM. Where the issue of clones is concerned, and for the board in general, the goal of fair and balanced moderation has not changed, and there is no desire for favoritism in ANY direction.

(c) I hope Jeremy will reconsider his decision. I have not had a chance to converse with him directly and have received no PMs from him. I posted responses in the moderator forum as soon as I regained internet access, but I am still locked out of e-mail and will be until tomorrow morning. I think Jeremy has been an outstanding moderator and I fully support his philosophy of moderation - always have.

(d) I don't set moderation policy. I passed along a request to the CCC mods that I received from Quentin, which came as the result of certain members haranguing ICD about real, suspected, and imagined clones. Graham misunderstood the message, performed some moderation on that basis, and Jeremy decided to post a grand exit without waiting to get any clarification about the guidance.

(e) Personally I am surprised that two CCC mods who share an opinion cannot simply outvote and override one mod on those occasions when has a different view. I got regularly overridden for two whole terms in CTF. I haven't complained, and nobody died. It's a discussion board, folks.

(f) If a member runs for moderator and is elected, I think it is fair to expect him to honor his commitment and serve out the term.

-Sam-
In a nutshell, our sponsor would like the CCC mod team to be as aggressive as possible in removing anything that looks like a questionable link, or any other encouragement to acquire software of questionable legitimacy.

This was the part of the message that I misinterpreted. My understanding was that any post praising the strength or qualities of the engines in question was actually encouraging members to acquire them.
Once Jeremy gave me the go ahead to remove some of the threads as long as I left a message (he was going to bed at the time), I went ahead and did so. However, it seems that I was too liberal in my interpretation of what he actually meant.

I therefore apologise to Sam, to my fellow moderators and also to the forum membership for the controversy and unfortunate situation that has occurred due to this genuine misunderstanding.
I am happy to work with Jeremy and Swami to undo as much of the damage as we can, if they're prepared to do so. This would include an amendment of the announcement posted.

Cheers,
Graham. :oops:


What about Rybka's questionable legitimacy? What is going on at this place ? Can anyone here not see the facts for what they are? I never thought it would occur but this is starting to piss me off ! Why is it fine for Rybka to clone parts of Fruit and NOT say it was done, yet other do this and it's taboo ? Bullshit, double standards! Really folks, get a clue!


There is an old saying, "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones". Yet all I can see is holes in windows, and walls, a real shame.

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