Goodbye Talkchess

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

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AdminX
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by AdminX » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:35 pm

Steve B wrote:
AdminX wrote:
This is the 1st time I have understood what you have said word for word! Your English has really improved! :D Keep up the good writing!
That still doesn't stop Rolf's premise from being totally wrong though

i have known Steve S since he opened shop back in 1984 selling dedicated chess computers
i lived within a short driving distance from his shop
met him several times in person and spoke frequently on the phone with him in the intervening years

and i was around right after the board started here
Steve S. never interfered in what was posted here and he took no "Uberlord" position about anything that went on here
he agreed to host the board in return for his banner on the top of the page..period

others around at the time of the boards formation can testify to this as well i imagine

More Understandable but wrong nevertheless regards
Steve
I understand your point, but I am still shocked I understood his English for the 1st time! :shock: :lol: I really use to think he might be a bot that people were responding to. I really don't mean that as a insult either.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Robert Flesher
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Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Robert Flesher » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:00 pm

Graham Banks wrote:
Sam Hull wrote: (a) Sorry for weighing in late. Our downtown Dallas office building has lost power and shut down my entire network two business days in a row, and I couldn't get back to the board after posting the guidance from Quentin for the CCC mods until now.

(b) There has been a rather large misunderstanding, and Jeremy has slightly misquoted what I passed along from ICD/Your Move. The guidance is simply to not tolerate anything that looks like a LINK to illegitimate software in CCC. No one said anything about censoring discussions or removing posts that simply make allusions or offer evaluations. Graham misunderstood the intent of the guidance - I have clarified it in detail for him this evening via IM. Where the issue of clones is concerned, and for the board in general, the goal of fair and balanced moderation has not changed, and there is no desire for favoritism in ANY direction.

(c) I hope Jeremy will reconsider his decision. I have not had a chance to converse with him directly and have received no PMs from him. I posted responses in the moderator forum as soon as I regained internet access, but I am still locked out of e-mail and will be until tomorrow morning. I think Jeremy has been an outstanding moderator and I fully support his philosophy of moderation - always have.

(d) I don't set moderation policy. I passed along a request to the CCC mods that I received from Quentin, which came as the result of certain members haranguing ICD about real, suspected, and imagined clones. Graham misunderstood the message, performed some moderation on that basis, and Jeremy decided to post a grand exit without waiting to get any clarification about the guidance.

(e) Personally I am surprised that two CCC mods who share an opinion cannot simply outvote and override one mod on those occasions when has a different view. I got regularly overridden for two whole terms in CTF. I haven't complained, and nobody died. It's a discussion board, folks.

(f) If a member runs for moderator and is elected, I think it is fair to expect him to honor his commitment and serve out the term.

-Sam-
In a nutshell, our sponsor would like the CCC mod team to be as aggressive as possible in removing anything that looks like a questionable link, or any other encouragement to acquire software of questionable legitimacy.

This was the part of the message that I misinterpreted. My understanding was that any post praising the strength or qualities of the engines in question was actually encouraging members to acquire them.
Once Jeremy gave me the go ahead to remove some of the threads as long as I left a message (he was going to bed at the time), I went ahead and did so. However, it seems that I was too liberal in my interpretation of what he actually meant.

I therefore apologise to Sam, to my fellow moderators and also to the forum membership for the controversy and unfortunate situation that has occurred due to this genuine misunderstanding.
I am happy to work with Jeremy and Swami to undo as much of the damage as we can, if they're prepared to do so. This would include an amendment of the announcement posted.

Cheers,
Graham. :oops:


What about Rybka's questionable legitimacy? What is going on at this place ? Can anyone here not see the facts for what they are? I never thought it would occur but this is starting to piss me off ! Why is it fine for Rybka to clone parts of Fruit and NOT say it was done, yet other do this and it's taboo ? Bullshit, double standards! Really folks, get a clue!


There is an old saying, "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones". Yet all I can see is holes in windows, and walls, a real shame.

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:09 pm

Milos wrote:
Rolf wrote:I am sure that Steven Schwartz would have stopped the noise for the illegal engines, Sam and Grah are two very thoughtful and mature persons...
Oh noooo, Rolf is back. Now CCC is really doomed... :(
A real tragedy indeed....I thought that he had quit computer chess and went farming or something,but....
The annoying thing is back regards,
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

gerold
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by gerold » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:14 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Milos wrote:
Rolf wrote:I am sure that Steven Schwartz would have stopped the noise for the illegal engines, Sam and Grah are two very thoughtful and mature persons...
Oh noooo, Rolf is back. Now CCC is really doomed... :(
A real tragedy indeed....I thought that he had quit computer chess and went farming or something,but....
The annoying thing is back regards,
Dr.D
He has been in the Rybka forum lately. :)
Now things can get back to normal here. :).

Best,
Gerold.

gerold
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by gerold » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:16 pm

Rolf wrote:Thanks Harvey this is great.
Welcome back Rolf. Was wondering why you have been awol.

Best,
Gerold.

Wayne Lowrance
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Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Wayne Lowrance » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:03 pm

goodbye, take hyatt with you

Wayne Lowrance
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Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Wayne Lowrance » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:07 pm

ooops
Last edited by Wayne Lowrance on Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

solis
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by solis » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:07 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Milos wrote:
Rolf wrote:I am sure that Steven Schwartz would have stopped the noise for the illegal engines, Sam and Grah are two very thoughtful and mature persons...
Oh noooo, Rolf is back. Now CCC is really doomed... :(
A real tragedy indeed....I thought that he had quit computer chess and went farming or something,but....
The annoying thing is back regards,
Dr.D
Hi Dr. D,
I hope to see you in the new forum.
Best wishes and good luck to those who are staying on this dying forum

rlsuth
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Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by rlsuth » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:00 pm

tjfroh wrote:The only reason that I can post crap.....



Never a truer word spoken in jest.

bob
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by bob » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:35 pm

Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:Let Graham and Sam enjoy moderating each other when this finally falls apart....
I am sure that Steven Schwartz would have stopped the noise for the illegal engines, Sam and Grah are two very thoughtful and mature persons, and I say this although they had differing opinions to my own. Their mastership could be described as follows, they have a somewhat consitant mindframe and dont change it every seasons, in other words it's impossible to corrupt them.

Although I admire the US practice of openess in science which led to the opensource model, I fear that even Americans didnt quite understand that this concept has limits. Look into the military for example. A community shouldnt follow nonsense that leads to suicide. Academics should understand that.

I had many months now trying to understand two questions. Why Bob supported the Ippo development? I didnt find a solution. When would Rybka 4 be a success: only with a plus Elo of 150? Here I found out that the question is already stupid. Because there is no absolute value of a software update in computerchess when the strength is mostly defined by hardware. A chess software for 36 € which leads all rankings and wins all tournaments is IMO better than open engines on lower ranks. For those in chess who must know what the God's moves are they must have the strongest Rybka 4 on clusters. Top GM and corr players. It's crazy that many interested wrongly assumed that the strength of a software could be seen as hardware-independant!

I wish that at least all the academics who have the better hardware in their brain will come back soon to the forum, that was also in that respect state of the art in computerchess. IMO the actual situation was initiated by outcasting the World Champ Vas Rajlich 5 years ago plus then the dirty campaign against Rybka. Let's come back to a new chapter with respect for ethical bases. The motto should be: No support for criminal attempts by invisible cowards!

P.S. It's self-understanding that I want to mention the sad event from Leiden when Larry Kaufman had to go to the clinic. Let us all wish him well, because beyond all the conflicts in the community we shouldnt forget that we are all only humans and no machines. Let's treat us mutually with care so that we can enjoy our hobby as older seniors as long as possible.

I wish you all the best and may sanity and creativity be with you.

Rolf
I'll say this again, "Bob doesn't support the Ippo* development". I do not know what the thing is, nor where it came from. We (the moderators when it first appeared) chose to not allow links to the program or its web site, although we felt obligated to allow discussions about the program since that is what CCC is _supposed_ to be about. As soon as Vas made the claim that this was a clone, we acted. And then we waited for some evidence. And waited. And waited. Until it became apparent that no evidence was forthcoming. After 3 months, we decided that it was unfair to take a claim with absolutely no evidence, and penalize a program. ICGA has done this in the past where a claim is made, immediate evidence is demanded, and either the evidence upholds the claim and the program is not allowed to compete, or the evidence does not support the claim and the program is accepted.

I have nothing to gain from the Ippo* project, nor anything to lose. I am not one of the authors, I am not a user, so have no dog in this hunt. I simply believe that without evidence a claim can not be taken seriously. And we don't have anything but anecdotal evidence here. A says "xxxxx", B thinks "yyyyy". That's not good enough.

If the owners of ICD want to dictate what is allowable and what is not, that represents a huge problem because it is an obvious conflict of interest. Steve _never_ made any such attempts. Things have changed. For the worse. Not to mention Graham's moderation philosophy.

As far as this "personal attack against Vas" you keep mentioning, my only comment deals with his ethics (or lack thereof) with regard to copying code from Fruit and then denying that this happened, completely. He'd have fared much better in "the court of public opinion" had he simply said "I started with the fruit source, but have modified it heavily and today little if any of that code remains." We didn't get that kind of honesty however. We got "silence".

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