Taming the Tiger :-)

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Nimzovik
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Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

Post by Nimzovik » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:22 pm

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 717
Location: Guadeloupe (french caribbean island)
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nimzovik wrote:
tiger wrote:
fern wrote:
Do you mean, dear christophe, that some routine is inserted in this Tiger in order to give some chances to the human side?
Say, offer a draw or accept it somewhat more easily than in a beast kind of engine?

Fern

Christophe Wrote:


Chess Tiger for iOS has 28 trainer levels ranging from 100 FIDE elo (totally random play) to 2100 FIDE elo. You can also set the level in USCF elo.

These levels (except for the two lowest) are exactly 50 elo points apart.

I have calibrated these levels on MILLIONS of games so I can guarantee that any trainer level is 50 elo points above the previous one and 50 elo points below the previous one.

It does not take long, starting at the bottom of the scale, to play a few quick games and walk the list until you find a trainer level that is close to your own strength.

At this point the fun begins.

50 elo points is small enough that you will generally be able to make progress or adapt yourself to the engine style and after a while you will be able to start fighting with the next level.

Also, the built-in human detector will activate automatically the antihuman mode. So Pablo's evil techniques will not work againt Chess Tiger for iOS.


// Christophe

Nimzovik Wrote:

Fascinating! Yet not yet proven. hmmmmmmmm.........

Christophe Wrote:

Are you new here?

Chess Tiger is the only program Pablo has never been able to defeat with his tricks.

It has been proven... Years ago. I think it was circa 2003.


Nimzovik Responds

Interesting..... again. I wonder- if -what you say is true about Pablo not beating Tiger then ...apparantly ..... You had to sacrifice strength in another area of the program to accomodate Pablo's chess-yes? I do notice that Tiger is not Remotely competitve these days with the superior programs.... Perhaps anyonce can design an engine to beat a singular opponent - figuratively speaking that is.....
No offense meant here of course.... You must be very proud of what.... bit .... that you have achieved with your program.

wolfv
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Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

Post by wolfv » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:06 pm

I simply have to jump in, apologies to everyone, and to my dear friend, Fernando,

yes and yes! I have "discovered" my love for playing chess programs again, this time thanks to Christophe. I play against CT now, each time I steal a bit of free time, and enjoy playing against it so much, almost as if I were taken back to the time I played against my Novag Super Forte or my Mach III :-) and Par Excellence... I have finally managed to find my match --- I play CT on its trainer level set at 2000 elo (FIDE), and we are just like two groggy fighters, punching and counterpunching, trying to mate each other. I keep my games saved for later perusal and for fun. In the beginning I was beaten to a pulp even by the 1850 trainer level, but have somehow managed to get better in time.

It seems that Christophe implemented some sort of "lucky punch" that was used previously by some programmers who enjoyed doing it and used to get kicks out of the human inability to find quick solutions to sudden aggressive moves by the program (for example people like Roland Pfister of Patzer fame, and Steffen Jakob of Hossa fame).

I do love my CT. I simply can't play to win against any other top program nowadays on my quad. But CT is something completely different. And much more different than Chess Genius or Shredder, for example. It has _character_, to use a corny phrase that seems suitable.

Play the Tiger each day of the week regards.
----------

Djordje

Robert Flesher
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Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

Post by Robert Flesher » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:41 pm

wolfv wrote:I simply have to jump in, apologies to everyone, and to my dear friend, Fernando,

yes and yes! I have "discovered" my love for playing chess programs again, this time thanks to Christophe. I play against CT now, each time I steal a bit of free time, and enjoy playing against it so much, almost as if I were taken back to the time I played against my Novag Super Forte or my Mach III :-) and Par Excellence... I have finally managed to find my match --- I play CT on its trainer level set at 2000 elo (FIDE), and we are just like two groggy fighters, punching and counterpunching, trying to mate each other. I keep my games saved for later perusal and for fun. In the beginning I was beaten to a pulp even by the 1850 trainer level, but have somehow managed to get better in time.

It seems that Christophe implemented some sort of "lucky punch" that was used previously by some programmers who enjoyed doing it and used to get kicks out of the human inability to find quick solutions to sudden aggressive moves by the program (for example people like Roland Pfister of Patzer fame, and Steffen Jakob of Hossa fame).

I do love my CT. I simply can't play to win against any other top program nowadays on my quad. But CT is something completely different. And much more different than Chess Genius or Shredder, for example. It has _character_, to use a corny phrase that seems suitable.

Play the Tiger each day of the week regards.

I simple love Chess Tiger on my Ipod Tough 4th Generation. I play it on full strength and I have only managed to draw once after more than 50 games. But of interest is I often think I am winning, only to be tricked, or simply proven WRONG!
I find the trainer levels ( I played at 2090 elo setting) strange. I easily defeated Tiger on this level ( yet this is approx my rating), it played very different chess when compared to full strength, almost like an aggressive blitz player.

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fern
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Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

Post by fern » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:07 am

Oh yes, now i see, another OS. Then je suis ...well, you know the word.
Very happy to see you here again and producing superior chess stuff.
Do you still remember when I tested youitr first version playing them agains a dedicated unit, in my home?

Ou lalala le temp...

Fern

wolfv
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Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

Post by wolfv » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:27 am

I agree with you, Robert. Probably because I play against the trainer level as fast as I can (usually spend about 3-4 min per game thinking), trying to match its speed. And that's the kind of chess I like to play as it really relaxes me. I did try the strongest playing level, the true Tiger, in the beginning and after about a handful of games, seeing that it plays just like a human GM, I decided to play only blitz and that's where I found out that it uses the so-called "lucky punch" when in a losing position...

I play against it on my Ipad (1st gen.), and the ease of play and the pleasure I get are perfect for me.
----------

Djordje

Nimzovik
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Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

Post by Nimzovik » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:35 am

Yes...... Perhaps I can see your points..... regarding playing such a dated program, that is....
I have a pet monkey that dances... I like to play dancing with it.
However I like to dance with a woman much better....

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tiger
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Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

Post by tiger » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:45 am

Nimzovik wrote:Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 717
Location: Guadeloupe (french caribbean island)
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nimzovik wrote:
tiger wrote:
fern wrote:
Do you mean, dear christophe, that some routine is inserted in this Tiger in order to give some chances to the human side?
Say, offer a draw or accept it somewhat more easily than in a beast kind of engine?

Fern

Christophe Wrote:


Chess Tiger for iOS has 28 trainer levels ranging from 100 FIDE elo (totally random play) to 2100 FIDE elo. You can also set the level in USCF elo.

These levels (except for the two lowest) are exactly 50 elo points apart.

I have calibrated these levels on MILLIONS of games so I can guarantee that any trainer level is 50 elo points above the previous one and 50 elo points below the previous one.

It does not take long, starting at the bottom of the scale, to play a few quick games and walk the list until you find a trainer level that is close to your own strength.

At this point the fun begins.

50 elo points is small enough that you will generally be able to make progress or adapt yourself to the engine style and after a while you will be able to start fighting with the next level.

Also, the built-in human detector will activate automatically the antihuman mode. So Pablo's evil techniques will not work againt Chess Tiger for iOS.


// Christophe

Nimzovik Wrote:

Fascinating! Yet not yet proven. hmmmmmmmm.........

Christophe Wrote:

Are you new here?

Chess Tiger is the only program Pablo has never been able to defeat with his tricks.

It has been proven... Years ago. I think it was circa 2003.


Nimzovik Responds

Interesting..... again. I wonder- if -what you say is true about Pablo not beating Tiger then ...apparantly ..... You had to sacrifice strength in another area of the program to accomodate Pablo's chess-yes? I do notice that Tiger is not Remotely competitve these days with the superior programs.... Perhaps anyonce can design an engine to beat a singular opponent - figuratively speaking that is.....
No offense meant here of course.... You must be very proud of what.... bit .... that you have achieved with your program.

There is no loss of strength. It's a special set of rules that is activated only if the opponent is clearly trying to NOT play. It is never activated when the opponent, computer or human, really plays chess.

Pablo himself has posted some example games against Tiger and admitted it is the ONLY program that did not fall into his strategic trap. At some point the program decides that enough is enough, breaks into the opponent's position with a sacrifice and slaughter him.

You can search the archives if you want to see it.

You are entitled to your opinion about Chess Tiger not being competitive these days, but the only one who really knows is me.

No offense meant.


// Christophe

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Mike S.
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Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

Post by Mike S. » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:53 am

wolfv wrote:I play CT on its trainer level set at 2000 elo (FIDE), and we are just like two groggy fighters, punching and counterpunching, trying to mate each other.
For test games, I have set the Palm Tiger 2010 to Gambit aggressive, Anti-human, and (unlike yesterday) now with Turbo Mode = ponder on. But I used less time than Tiger anyway. I think that the Elo estimation Tiger gives in my system (Palm Simulator in XP) of ~2275 is meant for 40/2h. But we play 40/10 min only.

I got another draw! :mrgreen: I must say I played quite lazy, trading a lot. Tiger's book was not prepared for the Löwenthal Variation (4...e5) of the Sici and his knight went back to f3.

Image

Of course, I suffered a couple of losses between these draws! :roll:
Regards, Mike

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tiger
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Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

Post by tiger » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:00 am

Nimzovik wrote:Yes...... Perhaps I can see your points..... regarding playing such a dated program, that is....
I have a pet monkey that dances... I like to play dancing with it.
However I like to dance with a woman much better....

Maybe nothing beats dancing or playing with yourself then.


// Christophe

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Mike S.
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:33 am

Re: Taming the Tiger :-)

Post by Mike S. » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:10 am

Despite the large threshold of 0.60, Stockfish 2.0.1 had a lot to criticise:

[Event "40/10m (Sim. ~60 MHz)"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.04.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Palm Tiger 2010, G.aggr/antihum"]
[Black "Sim-User"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B28"]
[Annotator "Stockfish"]
[PlyCount "101"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e5 5. Nf3 {-0.06/13} a6 {0.60/13} ({
Stockfish 2.01:} 5... Nf6 {-0.06/13}) 6. a3 {0.32/16} Be7 {0.32/16} 7. Nc3 {0.
29/14} b5 {1.15/14} ({Stockfish 2.01:} 7... Nf6 {0.29/14}) 8. Nd5 {0.59/15} Nf6
{0.59/13} 9. Nxe7 {0.32/16} Qxe7 {0.32/15} 10. Bg5 {0.32/14} Bb7 {0.61/13} 11.
c4 {0.53/12} b4 {0.89/13} 12. Qa4 {-0.13/14} ({Stockfish 2.01:} 12. Be2 {0.89/
13}) 12... a5 {0.53/12} ({Stockfish 2.01:} 12... bxa3 {-0.13/14}) 13. Qb5 {-0.
08/15} ({Stockfish 2.01:} 13. Bd3 {0.53/12}) 13... Ba6 {-0.39/13} 14. Qb6 {-0.
77/15} O-O {-0.25/14} 15. Bxf6 {-0.68/13} gxf6 {-0.09/15} 16. Qe3 {-0.06/12}
Kh8 {0.21/14} 17. h3 {-0.24/15} Qe6 {-0.25/13} 18. Rc1 {-0.36/13} a4 {0.00/17}
19. axb4 {0.00/17} Nxb4 {0.22/14} 20. Qa3 {-0.55/13} ({Stockfish 2.01:} 20. Nh4
{0.22/14}) 20... Qd6 {0.86/14} ({Stockfish 2.01:} 20... Rab8 {-0.55/13}) 21. c5
{-0.88/17} ({Stockfish 2.01:} 21. Be2 {0.86/14})
21... Nd3+ {-0.88/17} 22. Bxd3
{-1.11/19} Qxd3 {-1.00/18} 23. Qxd3 {-1.00/17} Bxd3 {-1.01/16} 24. Nd2 {-1.01/
16} Rfc8 {0.00/18} ({Stockfish 2.01:} 24... a3 {-1.01/16}) 25. Rc3 {0.00/18}
Bb5 {0.00/16} 26. g3 {-0.92/15} ({Stockfish 2.01} 26. f3 {0.00/16}) 26... Rc7 {
-0.36/15} 27. f3 {-0.84/17} Rac8 {-0.84/16} 28. b4 {-0.72/15} axb3 {-0.51/17}
29. Nxb3 {-0.51/16} Ba4 {-0.39/15} 30. O-O {-0.51/15} Bxb3 {0.00/21} (30... Kg7
) 31. Rxb3 {0.00/20} Rxc5 {0.00/21} 32. Rd3 {0.00/16} Rc2 {0.00/23} 33. Rxd7 {
0.00/20} Kg7 {0.06/21} 34. Rf2 {0.00/20} Rc1+ {0.09/19} 35. Kg2 {0.09/18} Re1 {
0.09/17} 36. f4 {-0.59/19} ({Stockfish 2.01:} 36. g4 {0.09/17}) 36... Rxe4 {-0.
59/19} 37. fxe5 {-0.59/19} Rxe5 {-0.58/17} 38. Rd3 {-0.58/16} Re6 {-0.48/17}
39. Kf3 {-0.48/18} Rc4 {-0.48/17} 40. Rf1 {-0.66/15} h6 {-0.44/18} 41. Rb1 {-0.
54/14} Ree4 {-0.37/17} 42. Rb5 {-0.44/14} Red4 {-0.27/32} 43. Rxd4 {-0.27/31}
Rxd4 {-0.27/30} 44. h4 {-0.27/29} Kg6 {-0.27/33} 45. h5+ {-0.27/35} Kg7 {-0.27/
33} 46. g4 {-0.27/33} Ra4 {-0.27/31} 47. Rc5 {-0.27/29} Rb4 {-0.27/31} 48. Rd5
{-0.27/30} Ra4 {0.00/44} 49. Rc5 {-0.27/32} Rb4 {0.00/45} 50. Rd5 {-0.27/29}
Ra4 {0.00/42} 51. Rc5 {-0.27/32} 1/2-1/2

I felt safe in the endgame after Tiger gave a pawn with 36.f4(?), which is reproducible in the simulation up to depth 10.
Regards, Mike

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