Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

[Frank Quisinsky]

My latest sentence:
I numbered two idiots on the list of "Open Letters Programmers". And I numbered a lot of programmers which not thinking in detail about here signature. Will not say idiots but we can speak about impetuous acting.

In different cases we can speak of jealousy, in different others cases we can speak of busybodies.

And only in a few cases we can speak of offending to the situation we have. Such signatures which have to do with offending I can understand. Again, not the right way.

I will give you an example:
One of the programmers whith undersign the open letter gave me for years the information: Vladimir Yelin is the biggest talent in chess programming. Do you need more examples after all what I got on information from different of undersign "Open Letters Programmers"?

[rodolfoleoni]

Isn't really possible a way out? Something like Vas admitting his faults, sharing his future incomes with Fabien and Bob (or making the next Rybka an open source engine)?

If it's not possible to find a solution to such a little thing, what hopes has the mankind to solve complicated problems such as Middle East, and so on?

[Harvey Williamson]

Isn't really possible a way out? Something like Vas admitting his faults, sharing his future incomes with Fabien and Bob (or making the next Rybka an open source engine)?

If it's not possible to find a solution to such a little thing, what hopes has the mankind to solve complicated problems such as Middle East, and so on?

There are lots of possibilities if Vas agrees to talk to the ICGA. I doubt Bob is looking for any money.

[rodolfoleoni]

Isn't really possible a way out? Something like Vas admitting his faults, sharing his future incomes with Fabien and Bob (or making the next Rybka an open source engine)?

If it's not possible to find a solution to such a little thing, what hopes has the mankind to solve complicated problems such as Middle East, and so on?

There are lots of possibilities if Vas agrees to talk to the ICGA. I doubt Bob is looking for any money.

Maybe, Vas cannot talk to ICGA because he's afraid of a legal action. His declarations would equal to admit to be guilty, with all the consequences it implies.

If Fabien Letouzey and Bob Hyatt declare that they wouldn't start a court case against Vas if he admits his faults (but they'd start it if Vas doesn't), maybe Vas would decide to talk to ICGA and to clear everything...

Maybe.

[Sean Evans]

Tell Cock he is an idiot.

Hmmmm....it seems Hyattian Oligarchy member Hyatt considers himself above the Computer-Chess Club Charter:

3. Do not contain personal and/or libelous attacks on others

Cordially,

Sean

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hello Sean,

that's right but we all are humans, Bob too. Often I am thinking much programmers are thinking with to many of here one speed ideas, included in the own sources. But this isn't a "speed optimization" topic.

This topic isn't easy and much persons will be a long time involved. I know Cock de Corter and if Cock will read that, believe me, he isn't a person which stumbles about words like idiot. For Cock are the facts and clear proofs more important as words in a critical discussion.

The guys in Leiden, Cock, Ed and all the others have knowledge and instinctive feeling how a chess tourney is to organize.

I hope the group of "Open Letters Programmers" will get some common sense ... for all his fans, customers of here own products. To be reserved is more clever. To search a good solution for such topics isn't a decision from a fast signature.

Best
Frank

[Don]

Hello Sean,

that's right but we all are humans, Bob too. Often I am thinking much programmers are thinking with to many of here one speed ideas, included in the own sources. But this isn't a "speed optimization" topic.

This topic isn't easy and much persons will be a long time involved. I know Cock de Corter and if Cock will read that, believe me, he isn't a person which stumbles about words like idiot. For Cock are the facts and clear proofs more important as words in a critical discussion.

The guys in Leiden, Cock, Ed and all the others have knowledge and instinctive feeling how a chess tourney is to organize.

I hope the group of "Open Letters Programmers" will get some common sense ... for all his fans, customers of here own products. To be reserved is more clever. To search a good solution for such topics isn't a decision from a fast signature.

Best
Frank

Hi Frank,

I know Bob and Cock and like them both. I don't think the decision is about any particular persons character here (with the possible exception of Vas) so please don't make it about that unless you just want innuendo and accusations. In your previous post you accused this of being about jealousy and people being a "busybody" and I don't understand the basis of this and did not think of you as that sort of person.

If we confine this to facts what you have is several things:

1. A panel with a unanimous opinion.
2. A panel consisting of experts on the matter.
3. A panel who considered the evidence as overwhelming empirical proof.
4. A decision by the ICGA that you and I have no control over. All we can do is bicker about it and give our opinions.

However, you also have this:

1. A number of NON-experts who keep saying there is no proof when there is.
2. A demand from the non-experts that every program author who ever existed must be unanimous on this.
3. Various allegations of conspiracies, jealousy, collusion, etc.
4. A few program authors with second thoughts on the how serious the infraction really is.

Adding more than this just makes for anarchy. If I don't like something is it now that I must start calling you names and guess at your motives?

The vast majority of people involved in this debacle are good people. I would like to stress that there are actually very few people actually involved. There may be a lot of comments and posts by everyone with an opinion, but it's my belief that the majority of them are unqualified to even understand what is happening - the vast majority are simply choosing sides and jumping on the bandwagon. There are lot of people saying, "show me proof" when it was all clearly layed out for all to see and evidently they are not capable of understanding the proof or they are just parroting something someone else said, the same old rehashed arguments that have be refuted or confirmed over and over again.

Of all this nonsense, to me the ONLY thing worthy of discussions (not that any of us has any control of the decisions of the ICGA) is how serious was the "crime" and I believe that is really the ONLY matter that is actually being discussed here - everything else is smoke and mirrors. They say when couples argue about "squeezing the toothpaste the wrong way" it's not about the toothpaste at all, it's about something else entirely. I think if we just accept that this is about our own personal sensibilities about what SHOULD have happened it would bring things a bit more into focus.

Of course it will never be resolved because we are each different. There are some who just don't see this as a big deal even if he copied every line of code and changed nothing and others in between. I wish people would just make their cases more honestly. I might not agree with them, but it would refreshing to hear someone say, "I know that Vas copied a lot of code and changed it and I just don't think that is a big deal." Instead they set out to convince everyone that it never happened and that a lynch mob planted evidence, etc.

[El Gringo]

Hi,

I think the programmers should do the opposite ! Subscribe to the Leiden Tournament and then use the tournament rule number two who says :

The source code of the program may not contain recognizable parts from
published programs, unless the creators are in the team. In case of doubt the team gives the organization the possibility to look at the code and give
comments on it.

I'm almost 100% sure that Deep Rybka will whitdraw and will not give his source code to the organisers. Then Cock and his chief editor (and rybka fan boy) will see the truth about Vas.

Best
Johan

[Robert Flesher]

Tell Cock he is an idiot.

Hmmmm....it seems Hyattian Oligarchy member Hyatt considers himself above the Computer-Chess Club Charter:

3. Do not contain personal and/or libelous attacks on others

Cordially,

Sean

In civil law "Slander" cannot be proven if the implied statements are true. Although there is alot of grey area here, the fact remains if Cock can be proven to be an idiot, there is no "Slander". Should a hooker be insulted if someone calls her a whore? Ever heard the term, "I call a spade a spade", this seems to apply. Capiche?

[bhlangonijr]

Tell Cock he is an idiot.

Cock is a longstanding friend of mine through our shared interest in the Chessmaster engines.
I am not going to treat him like shit, just because he is part of a group that shares a different opinion about the ICGA decision than others do.
You can tell him yourself how you feel Bob.

Hello Graham,

Although I don't agree with the current direction of the CSVN board regarding the Rybka case I must say Cock de Gorter is a very nice person, a gentleman. I met him in the Leiden tournaments and I have always been treated very well by everyone there.

He deserves all respect that one can get. This "philosophical" dispute is a very minor thing compared to all that Cock has given to computer chess.

Regards,