Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

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Vinvin
Posts: 4111
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am

Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

Post by Vinvin » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:13 pm

First game.
I feel Victor was not (yet) in a fighting mood for the first game probably because unconventional conditions : playing a computer, the operator (me) clicking and typing. More, I had trouble with Arena interface : sometime the position changed the list move going backward for unknown reasons. I thought it was because I touched the wheel of the mouse but after deactivate the weel, the trouble stays. So, for some moves Komodo lost the ponder. In the end of the first game I saw I didn't set the EGTB, I try to set the parameter, I have to copy past from another engine, but when I reloaded Komodo, may be I try to configure to fast the parameters and Arena crashed. That's why some moves where lost.
Victor took a lot of time in the beginning of the games, Victor do that regularly, even in long games. When he tried to go faster, because his clock ran near 1 min, he blundered.
I had trouble with Arena, the time of Victor reached 0.00 and engine stopped to think. I had trouble with the real clock too, I added only 5 sec per move for operating but it was too short, I had to reset this clock too.

Second game.
I decide to post only on talkchess forum and less often (no more on FICS).
I set higher time for Victor in Arena (Arena is a pain to set clock, only advancing second by second) and more time for Komodo on the table clock.
Victor decided to play faster. The opening chosen was 1.e4. A weak opening for a knight handicap. 3.Nxe5 is probably already a blunder because the e-file is open, the kings will fast castle on the same side. Very few chance to get a complicated game for white. Pieces exchange without big threats ans less and less hope to get play for white.

Third game.
It was already around 20.00 now. Around average 2h30m per game.
We take a break walking to the shop, bring food and eat.
Game ran more smoothly now, less external interference, but we are both tired. The match last 8h with only 1 hour of rest.
Victor play the beginning of the game quite fast but when Komodo played the strong 22.d5!, Victor had to take more time and around 7 minutes around move #25 (I don't remember exactly which one). With less time, some inaccuracy appears 33...Ra6? and 38...Rb8?, after that Komodo can draw easily.
Game ended around 23.00.

2nd day of the match will be next Sunday for the 3 last games. We try to begin 1 hour sooner and I'll look to use the Chessbase interface to avoid all this troubles.

Victor will probably make a better score than the first day ... or not :wink:

Vinvin
Posts: 4111
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am

Re: Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

Post by Vinvin » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:34 pm

Some pictures of the match :

Image

Image

Image

Image

Dirt
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Irvine, CA, USA

Re: Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

Post by Dirt » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:40 pm

So, what were the results of the three games? Three draws? And what were the handicaps?
Deasil is the right way to go.

Vinvin
Posts: 4111
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am

Re: Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

Post by Vinvin » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:12 pm

Dirt wrote:So, what were the results of the three games? Three draws? And what were the handicaps?
Handicap were the b1 knight (see the 1st picture) but black have to win (draw odd).
Results : 1-0, 0-1 and 1/2-1/2

I put the 3 games here : http://home.scarlet.be/vincentlejeune/c ... Victor.pgn

Spliffjiffer
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Location: Germany

Re: Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

Post by Spliffjiffer » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:05 am

Hello Vincent, in "Arena" u can adjust the clock minute by minute instead of second by second when u hold the "control" button while adjusting with the mouse wheel.

Interesting match...curious about sunday :-)

regards, Peer
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

lkaufman
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Location: Maryland USA
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Re: Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

Post by lkaufman » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:30 am

Thanks for this report, for the photos, and for organizing this match. It looks like the conditions made for a closely contested match, although anything can happen in the final three games.
Since this match is competitive, I've asked FM John Meyer to play a similar match sometime in August, and he has accepted. He may not be any stronger than Mr. Bolzoni, but since he beat Rybka four to nothing under similar conditions he might prove to be a tougher opponent for this match.
Komodo rules!

Ferdy
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Location: Philippines

Re: Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

Post by Ferdy » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:14 am

Vinvin wrote: I had trouble with Arena, the time of Victor reached 0.00 and engine stopped to think.
Disable the Autoflag.

Ferdy
Posts: 3620
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:15 pm
Location: Philippines

Re: Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

Post by Ferdy » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:07 pm

Vinvin wrote:First game.
playing a computer, the operator (me) clicking and typing. More, I had trouble with Arena interface : sometime the position changed the list move going backward for unknown reasons. I thought it was because I touched the wheel of the mouse but after deactivate the wheel, the trouble stays.
I don't know the exact problem was, but there is indeed problem with the notation when the last move is not the highlighted move (mouse wheeling etc.) and it is engine to play, because the engine move will not be appended after the last move of the game but instead it will be appended after the highlighted move in the notation. One way of solving this is by disabling some functions in the gui thru the use of tournament setup. Create a tournament, register the Komodo first then Victor as human player by pressing the add player button. Set the rounds to 1 and other settings such as time, don't forget to disable autoflag. Also set the equivalent pgn for knight odds in the start position under options tab in tournament window. There are two autoflag option in arena, one in engine management and one in the engine tournament window, set both to off.
With this setup, you will not be able to see the engine thinking output, but you can still activate the debug window to see what the engine is thinking. Mouse wheels will have no effect in the gui, and the notation window will not update even if you select one of those moves there, the highlighted move is always the last move in the notation. You can still adjust the clock. Notation copying is disabled so set autosave to on too. I operate my engine before similar to your situation, and I always set aside a minute or 3 for operating lag. There is always operator time lag especially if you will go to the comfort room for example, and your opponent made a move. It is better to reserve a time buffer this way than in the middle or close to time trouble like 5 minutes remaining and adjust the clock there. As player moves fast too the operator lag also increases.

Vinvin
Posts: 4111
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 am

Re: Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

Post by Vinvin » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:33 pm

Ferdy wrote:
Vinvin wrote:First game.
playing a computer, the operator (me) clicking and typing. More, I had trouble with Arena interface : sometime the position changed the list move going backward for unknown reasons. I thought it was because I touched the wheel of the mouse but after deactivate the wheel, the trouble stays.
I don't know the exact problem was, but there is indeed problem with the notation when the last move is not the highlighted move (mouse wheeling etc.) and it is engine to play, because the engine move will not be appended after the last move of the game but instead it will be appended after the highlighted move in the notation. One way of solving this is by disabling some functions in the gui thru the use of tournament setup. Create a tournament, register the Komodo first then Victor as human player by pressing the add player button. Set the rounds to 1 and other settings such as time, don't forget to disable autoflag. Also set the equivalent pgn for knight odds in the start position under options tab in tournament window. There are two autoflag option in arena, one in engine management and one in the engine tournament window, set both to off.
With this setup, you will not be able to see the engine thinking output, but you can still activate the debug window to see what the engine is thinking. Mouse wheels will have no effect in the gui, and the notation window will not update even if you select one of those moves there, the highlighted move is always the last move in the notation. You can still adjust the clock. Notation copying is disabled so set autosave to on too. I operate my engine before similar to your situation, and I always set aside a minute or 3 for operating lag. There is always operator time lag especially if you will go to the comfort room for example, and your opponent made a move. It is better to reserve a time buffer this way than in the middle or close to time trouble like 5 minutes remaining and adjust the clock there. As player moves fast too the operator lag also increases.
Thanks Ferdinand ! All the operating troubles was solved finally !
The most mysterious was the mouse causing backward moves, I use another mouse with wire and no more random things happened.
Still a couple of incorrect moves (over the 200) from my side when playing on the screen. I dropped the piece one square too short, caused by an unusual area under the mouse.
I'll make a final report in a couple of days.

thekingman
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:17 am

Re: Komodo knight odd match vs FM Victor Bolzoni : report

Post by thekingman » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:30 am

Fascinating match, thank you very much for organizing it and sharing the results with us. I very much look forward to seeing how the second half goes on Sunday.

However, while I understand that material odds matches have a long history, in a lot of ways, they are not like normal chess at all - one side simply needs to successfully trade everything without blundering to win. I have long been in favor of a different kind of odds matches - initiative odds.

In an initiative odds match, one side starts with a lot of extra moves, or the opponent is forced to play a series of highly compromising moves before the game begins for real. This initiative can often be transformed into material advantage, but you need to work for it, and the result is a great duel between attacking and defensive technique - certainly a more "chess-like" battle!

Here are two interesting such games between a roughly GM-strength program (Crafty) and Stockfish 6:

[pgn]
[Event "Stockfish vs Crafty 9 moves odds"]
[White "Crafty-23.4-win32"]
[Black "Stockfish-6-sse42"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 Ng8 3. Bg2 Nf6 4. O-O Ng8 5. e4 Nf6 6. d3 Ng8 7. Be3 Nf6 8.
Nbd2 Ng8 9. c3 e6 10. Qb3 Nf6 11. e5 Nd5 12. Bg5 Be7 13. Ne4 Bxg5 14. Nexg5 Ne7
15. d4 h6 16. Ne4 O-O 17. Rfe1 Nbc6 18. Qa3 Rb8 19. c4 b5 20. Bf1 bxc4 21. Rac1
Bb7 22. Rxc4 Nd5 23. Nc5 Ba8 24. Bg2 d6 25. Nd3 Qd7 26. Rec1 Nb6 27. R4c2 Nd5
28. b3 a5 29. Rd2 Rfd8 30. Nb2 Nce7 31. Nc4 Bc6 32. Nxa5 Ra8 33. Rb2 Bb5 34. b4
Nc6 35. exd6 cxd6 36. Nd2 Rdc8 37. Bxd5 exd5 38. Rbc2 Nxd4 39. Rxc8+ Rxc8 40.
Rxc8+ Qxc8 41. Nab3 Nc2 42. Qb2 Bd3 43. a3 d4 44. Nc1 Bf5 45. Ncb3 d3 46. h4
Be6 47. Kh2 Bd5 48. Qc1 Qe6 49. Qf1 Bxb3 50. Qxd3 Ba4 51. Nf3 d5 52. Qc3 Qe2
53. Qc8+ Be8 54. Kg1 Ne1 55. Nd4 Qe4 56. Kf1 Nd3 57. Ne2 Kh7 58. Qc2 Qh1+ 59.
Ng1 Bb5 0-1

[/pgn]
Engines started on move 9

[pgn]
[Event "Stockfish vs Crafty Kd5 and move odds"]
[White "Stockfish-6-sse42"]
[Black "Crafty-23.4-win32"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e3 Nf6 2. Ke2 Ng4 3. Kf3 Nh6 4. Ke4 Ng8 5. Kd5 Nc6 6. Ke4 Nf6+ 7. Kf3 d5 8.
Ke2 e5 9. Ke1 Bd6 10. h3 O-O 11. d3 d4 12. Nf3 Bd7 13. e4 Be6 14. Be2 Qe7 15.
Kf1 h6 16. Kg1 a5 17. Kh2 a4 18. Re1 Bb4 19. Bd2 Bc5 20. Na3 Bxa3 21. bxa3 Qxa3
22. Qc1 Qd6 23. Kg1 b5 24. Nh4 Rfe8 25. a3 Rab8 26. f4 exf4 27. Bxf4 Ne5 28.
Rf1 Qc5 29. Bxh6 Nxe4 30. Bxg7 Kxg7 31. Qf4 Nc4 32. Bg4 Ned6 33. Bxe6 Rxe6 34.
Qg4+ Rg6 35. Rxf7+ Kxf7 36. Qxg6+ Ke7 37. Qg7+ Kd8 38. Qf8+ Kd7 39. Qxb8 Ne3
40. Nf3 Qxc2 41. Qg8 Ndf5 42. Qg6 c5 43. h4 Ne7 44. Qg7 Qb2 45. Re1 Qa2 46. Rc1
Qxa3 47. Rb1 b4 48. Qf7 Qc3 49. Ne5+ Kd6 50. Qf6+ Kd5 51. Nf7 N3f5 52. Nd8 c4
53. Rf1 1-0
[/pgn]
Engines started on move 6

Both starting positions are arguably even more advantageous than knight odds, yet Stockfish won them both. Could a human do better? It would be an exciting match, that's for sure! So the next time anyone runs a human vs computer odds match, I would like to humbly request that you consider similar initiative odds rather than only pure material odds.

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