Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

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lkaufman
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Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by lkaufman » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:27 pm

I have come up with four possible handicaps for a potential four game match with an FM (no one in particular, but we have at least three candidates around the 2200 level). Each of these gives Komodo (Black) a clearly resignable position by normal GM standards, but according to Komodo each handicap is at least a bit less than standard knight odds, which has proved to be too large a handicap so far. Here they are:

1. Seven moves. White gets to play seven moves without crossing the midline, then it is Black's turn. It has been shown here that eight moves is really an easy win, seven is the maximum playable.
2. Pawn and four moves. Black removes f7 pawn, White gets to play four moves without crossing midline, then it is Black's turn. Bobby Fischer used to give this handicap to masters in blitz games, but now we are talking about serious (45' + 15") games.
3. g7 and f7. Black removes those two pawns, the worst possible for him. After 1.e4 White already threatens mate, and 1...Nf6? loses a piece.
4. Black king starts on e5! This seems the most ridiculous of all, it's even White's move. Looks like it should be a forced mate, but apparently it's not so simple.

Before I actually propose such a match to anyone, I'd like to get some comments. They all seem totally unreasonable, it's hard to imagine a master not winning with any of them. But Komodo believes they are roughly in the range of the knight for pawn handicap at which Komodo beat FM Meyer 3.5 to 0.5. Can anyone demonstrate that White can obtain a greater advantage with correct play at any of these handicaps than the eval shown by your engine for knight (b1) odds? Is it possible that Komodo's eval is just way off for such positions, and that they are just too easy for a human master to win? Or is this actually a reasonable match?
Komodo rules!

JJJ
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by JJJ » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:59 pm

I can't argue with these handicap, because I m not good enough. I can say I d like to see black king on e5. It would be fun to see Komodo escape and then win :)

g7 and f7 pawn handicap are very high handicap I think. Buy maybe enough for a 2200 master. I think it is gonna be close.

whereagles
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by whereagles » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:09 pm

While I'm all for all sorts of handicap matches, my pragmatic side tells me most of them are academic/for amusement only.

Serious players might be attracted by handicaps that do not deviate much from classic chess (say pawn & move, draw odds, time differences), but stranger handicaps will probably have a smaller audience.

Personally, I would be interested in time odds. Say e.g. 1 hour vs 5 mins (1 min???), ponder OFF.

Thx for your time.

By the way, king on e5 and black pawns all in 7th-rank?
Last edited by whereagles on Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

BubbaTough
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by BubbaTough » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:10 pm

King on e5 sounds hilarious and fun. I have not been following many of the handicap games, but that I would have to see.

-Sam

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Ajedrecista
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by Ajedrecista » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:22 pm

Hello Larry:
lkaufman wrote:1. Seven moves. White gets to play seven moves without crossing the midline, then it is Black's turn. It has been shown here that eight moves is really an easy win, seven is the maximum playable.
I find interesting all the four choices but I am intrigued by the first one. Which could be the best seven white moves with 'playable game' and the best eight white moves with 'easy win'? I tried some setups (e4, d4, Bc4, Qf3 or Qg4, Nc3, etc.) in Arena with SF 6 and I get evals of around +2, too few. Thanks in advance.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.

thekingman
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by thekingman » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:29 pm

All fascinating options, which I would love to see. My very favorite would have to be king on e5, followed closely by 7 moves. Material-related handicaps are getting their time in the spotlight, so this may as well be a different theme and not include any material.

As these games have the potential for forced moves very early on, I would suggest trying to maintain some variety. Maybe alternate king on e5 and king on d5, and for the 7 move handicap, ask the human to use a different setup each game, and/or play two games of each.

All awesome ideas, looking forward to seeing one or more of them happen!

lkaufman
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by lkaufman » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:40 pm

thekingman wrote:All fascinating options, which I would love to see. My very favorite would have to be king on e5, followed closely by 7 moves. Material-related handicaps are getting their time in the spotlight, so this may as well be a different theme and not include any material.

As these games have the potential for forced moves very early on, I would suggest trying to maintain some variety. Maybe alternate king on e5 and king on d5, and for the 7 move handicap, ask the human to use a different setup each game, and/or play two games of each.

All awesome ideas, looking forward to seeing one or more of them happen!
I was proposing a four game match, one with each of the four handicaps, so no need to talk about providing variety.
Komodo rules!

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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by lkaufman » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:43 pm

Ajedrecista wrote:Hello Larry:
lkaufman wrote:1. Seven moves. White gets to play seven moves without crossing the midline, then it is Black's turn. It has been shown here that eight moves is really an easy win, seven is the maximum playable.
I find interesting all the four choices but I am intrigued by the first one. Which could be the best seven white moves with 'playable game' and the best eight white moves with 'easy win'? I tried some setups (e4, d4, Bc4, Qf3 or Qg4, Nc3, etc.) in Arena with SF 6 and I get evals of around +2, too few. Thanks in advance.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.
There was a post a while ago showing that 1e4,2d4, 3Nf3.4Nc3, 5Bf4, 6Bc4, 7Qe2, 80-0-0 is an easy win. But I don't know what seven moves are best, or how to force an advantage greater than knight odds with it.
Komodo rules!

lkaufman
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by lkaufman » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:46 pm

whereagles wrote:While I'm all for all sorts of handicap matches, my pragmatic side tells me most of them are academic/for amusement only.

Serious players might be attracted by handicaps that do not deviate much from classic chess (say pawn & move, draw odds, time differences), but stranger handicaps will probably have a smaller audience.

Personally, I would be interested in time odds. Say e.g. 1 hour vs 5 mins (1 min???), ponder OFF.

Thx for your time.

By the way, king on e5 and black pawns all in 7th-rank?
Yes, pawns all on their normal squares. Sounds ridiculous I know!
Yes, high handicap matches with FMs will get smaller audience than low handicap matches with GMs. But they are much cheaper to hold, as the FMs are amateur players. And we do learn things from them.
Komodo rules!

BubbaTough
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by BubbaTough » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:46 pm

lkaufman wrote: But I don't know what seven moves are best, or how to force an advantage greater than knight odds with it.
I imagine it would not be that hard to modify the Komodo search to have the first 7 moves be for white and going to the first 4 ranks. It would give you a decent estimate.

-Sam

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