DEEP SYNAPZE

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:56 am

mjlef wrote:Say a friend copies a book, and hands you the copy, claiming he wrote it himself.
Nice example. When someone here claims a book is not original he has to handle arguments like:

-The new book is half the size, so it must be original.
-He started with another book but he rewrote everything.
-There is only changed one sentence, but that makes the book much better. So the new author must be more creative than the old one.
-Writing a book from scratch is stupid, it is smart to copy from other books. No need to invent everything new.

A Distel
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Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by A Distel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:41 am

Graham Banks wrote:
BrendanJNorman wrote:......With the exception of a few wonderful people, I've now all but lost respect for this "community" and have absolutely no interest in engaging with these people.

The fact that I can be accused of being a thief and insulted frequently on this forum for sincere (although sometimes controversial in the eyes of long-timers) questions, reflects on the quality of the people here.

The fact that after the author of one of the commercial engines I purchased had to come on this site and say "For the record, Brendan is a registered owner of Houdini 5", my accusers instead of retracting their abuse (or god forbid, giving an apology) dissapeared back into their hole, waiting to reemerge, guerrilla warfare style for round 2 - reflects a lot on this "community".

And the fact, that even among the good people here, basically nobody said a word to defend me or reprimand the scumbags for their abuse - also reflects a lot.

Enjoy your forum.
I wouldn't let this bad experience turn you away from this forum.

Many years of experience here has led me to the conclusion that it's healthier to concentrate on the aspects of the hobby that you enjoy most, while steering clear of other matters.

However, it certainly wasn't right to question whether or not you were using legitimate copies of commercial engines.

Sometimes members here are too quick to attack others (and yes, I've been guilty of this in the past too).

Graham.
Credit to you for being so honest!
The road to chaos is filled with political correctness.
― Tadros

mjlef
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Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by mjlef » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:58 pm

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Scacchista1977 wrote:I think there is no only one "Torres" author of Synapze and no Synapze team but only someone trying to make fun of everyone and to make money. Many are "Torres" that run on the network, and many require money for Stockfish clones. Now I give an example: a certain Mohamed Nayeem asked for money for this engine clone: https://github.com/MohamedNayeem/Nayeem and continues to give every commercial engine on His website if you subscribe to "paying" the vip status. . ...
then there are other ways to make money on the backs of chessfans, as this gentleman: https://github.com/JoselitoPimPamFuego/Symphysodon
he asked me for money in His old website for a copy of Synapse 4.8 ..... he said, at reduced price !!! .... I forgot, both gentlemen above now ask money in own sites for clones opening books.... , then the saying “a leopard cannot change its spots” is still valid today!
Sorry for my bad english!
See, this Mohamed guy is a scumbag and a criminal.

He has download links on the linked site to Houdini 5, Komodo 10.3 and other new engines.

Some of you guys truly have your guns pointed in the wrong direction.
guns? we are not pointing anything at you. We are just letting others know about these stolen programs.

mjlef
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Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by mjlef » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:53 pm

On difference between a forum and the real world is it give equal voice to everyone. We have to use common sense and experience to filter out the junk. I try not to get riled up when people post attacks here. The first question I ask myself is if this person has any reasonable experience. Are they an expert> Or are they speaking of things they do not really know.

Long ago I decided that if someone was trying to upset me, and they succeeded, then they have won. Many people just want to make us angry. If you do not let them make you angry or drive you away, then you have won.

We only know a little about each other, so ask yourself if this person even knows you at all. Call them out on lies and let them know they are not able to make you angry. This will drive them crazy. Try it. It is fun.

carldaman
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Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by carldaman » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:21 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
mjlef wrote:I would encourage you to participate more here, not less. You are right that some chess engine users are completely unaware a given engine might be stolen from someone else. Many would not be able to judge what is original and what is not, so they would depend on experts here to clarify the issue for them. Try not to take what people write here as any kind of an attack. This is mostly an educational site to teach people new things.

So saying that, it is simply wrong to take something someone else owns the copyright on without permission. It is not legal to copy a whole book and give it to someone else. You are depriving that author of royalties when you do. And when it becomes rampant, authors will just give up and stop producing.

Do I blame an end user who uses an engine but does not know it is stolen? No I do not. But I am a bit skeptical if they make no attempt at all to see what it is. And somehow, once many of the people learn here a given program is stolen, they keep using it anyway. To me that crosses a line.

I will go back to a book example. Say a friend copies a book, and hands you the copy, claiming he wrote it himself. Would you believe that if you friend had never expressed an interest in writing a book ever before? So why would someone believe a person who claims to have written a chess engine and it is suddenly one of the strongest in the world? All legitimate engines I have ever seen have taken many years to develop, step by step with rating increases over a long period. To spring up "out of nowhere" and be on the top has to be something that most people should be suspicious of.
Look Mark, to me it's now like this:

1. You said "Do I blame an end user who uses an engine but does not know it is stolen? No I do not. But I am a bit skeptical if they make no attempt at all to see what it is."

This is because you are not a tournament chess player. You're a computer chess guy. You evidently aren't able to view things from the position of another.

In my teens I used Fritz, Junior, Hiarcs, Shredder and other engines and, all that I knew was that "Fritz is tactical, Junior is speculative, Hiarcs is human-like, Shredder is strategic". As a chess player, this is the only information I needed and all that I'd ever bother to know about "what it is".

I know hundreds of chess players who are the same. Why would a carpenter study the origins of his hammer? So whether you're skeptical or not doesn't matter, it is what it is.

2. If they did (what whatever reason) go digging, in the CCRL list alone, the authors of Critter, Gull, Fire, Rybka/Fritz 15 and even Houdini (plus many more) have all been called "thieves" at one time or another. I could find you 100 threads to prove this, but you know it's true.

This hypothetical chess player finding out what's "in" say Houdini, for example, might get quite a poor impression of the chess programming community, as I now have.

In conclusion:

With the exception of a few wonderful people, I've now all but lost respect for this "community" and have absolutely no interest in engaging with these people.

The fact that I can be accused of being a thief and insulted frequently on this forum for sincere (although sometimes controversial in the eyes of long-timers) questions, reflects on the quality of the people here.

The fact that after the author of one of the commercial engines I purchased had to come on this site and say "For the record, Brendan is a registered owner of Houdini 5", my accusers instead of retracting their abuse (or god forbid, giving an apology) dissapeared back into their hole, waiting to reemerge, guerrilla warfare style for round 2 - reflects a lot on this "community".

And the fact, that even among the good people here, basically nobody said a word to defend me or reprimand the scumbags for their abuse - also reflects a lot.

Enjoy your forum.
(I wanted to post this earlier, but my PC is giving me problems)

I have to say that I feel very saddened and disheartened that a poster can be falsely accused, with impunity, in a moderated computer chess forum, of stealing a chess engine.

Such a claim can only be unproven/unprovable, and is therefore a direct personal attack. I thought this was against the charter of this forum... So, my first question is -- where the heck are the moderators? Aren't they supposed to intervene when a member is slandered??

Remember, members are asked to give their real names upon joining, which is meant to reassure people that such personal attacks are unacceptable, (and thus deterred from happening), and that they can post freely and have a pleasant experience while doing so. This forum was specifically created, if I recall, because the old unmoderated rgcc had become a cesspool of trolls and flamers.

Insults and personal attacks have been quite common here, and this provides a disincentive to participate for many on-lookers, and not just for the injured party. Very sad. :-(

CL

Scacchista1977
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Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by Scacchista1977 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:18 am

Unfortunately the insults and offenses are often the tool used by those who lack serious content as to give in a discussion. I think the best attitude is to ignore those who use these means of dialogue. You should first think and then, if you have good content, answer ... but I realize that this is a subject that does not relate to this topic, also became too taken seriously!

MikeB
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Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by MikeB » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:16 pm

+1 well said Carl

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hgm
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Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by hgm » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:21 pm

carldaman wrote:So, my first question is -- where the heck are the moderators? Aren't they supposed to intervene when a member is slandered??
I am here, and have an occasional peek in this thread. Note that no posts whatsoever have been reported recently, so that it is basically just a coincidence when I see something that deserves moderation. The event you talk about happened in another thread, where I actually did remove a remark that crossed the lines.

IIRC what you are referring to was not a direct accusation of stealing, but just the statement that someone would not be surprised if this had happened. Which IMO says something about the person making that statement, leaving everything else entirely hypothetical. And that person was shamed for his ill thoughts in public by mr Houdart himself, so I did not really see any reason to intervene.

carldaman
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Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by carldaman » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:56 am

hgm wrote:
carldaman wrote:So, my first question is -- where the heck are the moderators? Aren't they supposed to intervene when a member is slandered??
IIRC what you are referring to was not a direct accusation of stealing, but just the statement that someone would not be surprised if this had happened. Which IMO says something about the person making that statement, leaving everything else entirely hypothetical. And that person was shamed for his ill thoughts in public by mr Houdart himself, so I did not really see any reason to intervene.
Not a direct accusation of stealing? It was very thinly veiled to say the least.
But, then what about these subsequent statements?

"I don't believe at all that you purchased Houdini 5 twice. What's the email address you used to make your purchases?"

and

"Just as I expected, you pretended to be willing to prove that you purchased Houdini 5 twice but when asked to provide proof to back up your claim you run away from it."

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
topic_view=threads&p=703800&t=62898


So, the false accuser continued to bait Norman until both he and Robert Houdart had to substantiate that Houdini had indeed been legally purchased.
Please note that the allegation was submitted with no proof whatsoever, (as if such proof were even possible from the accuser); instead, the *target* of the attack bore all the burden of proof -- in other words, an automatic case of "guilty until proven innocent". This is in itself was/is outrageous.

You say the attacker must have felt shamed, but people capable of feeling shame usually do not resort to such unwarranted accusations in the first place. It looks a lot more like he got off scot-free for defaming the good name of a member, just because this forum allows it.


What it comes down to is this: it is not right for this moderated forum to demand that members register with their real names, and then leave these same members 'high and dry' to be abused by vicious trolls, as a result of little or no moderation.

Because of its real-name policy, the forum bears the responsibility of protecting the members from serious abuse, and especially any form of slander.

[OK, HGM, I understand being a mod is a thankless job, but as they say, someone's gotta do it. :-( ]


CL

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hgm
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Re: Deep Synapse RZ6

Post by hgm » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:20 am

'Being shamed' is a passive occupation. What matters is that it is publicly exposed that the misbehaving person has a dirty mind, so that readers know how seriously to take his words and opinions in the future. How the person himself feels about this is not really relevant.

It seems to me you are trying to make a Whale out of a Mosquito here. I don't think Brendon's reputation was damaged in any way. On the contrary, he was shown to have spoken truthfully. It is in fact questionable whether accusations that are obviously completely unfounded, because the person voicing them cannot possibly have any knowledge about it, could ever damage someone's reputation.

As to the real-name policy, this is something outside the jurisdiction of the moderators. User registration is the prerogative of the board admin. Personally I consider it more annoying that users don't list their location than whether they use their real name.

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