AlphaZero vs Stockfish

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Lion
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Location: Switzerland

AlphaZero vs Stockfish

Post by Lion » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:28 pm

I looked again the game in which AlphaZero sacrifices a knight on h6.
I don’t believe this is brute force calculation so it makes what AlphaZero did even more impressive!

kgburcham
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Re: AlphaZero vs Stockfish

Post by kgburcham » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:46 am

Lion wrote:I looked again the game in which AlphaZero sacrifices a knight on h6.
I don’t believe this is brute force calculation so it makes what AlphaZero did even more impressive!

can you post the game or position
no chess program was born totally from one mind. all chess programs have many ideas from many minds.

Albert Silver
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Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Re: AlphaZero vs Stockfish

Post by Albert Silver » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:03 am

kgburcham wrote:
Lion wrote:I looked again the game in which AlphaZero sacrifices a knight on h6.
I don’t believe this is brute force calculation so it makes what AlphaZero did even more impressive!

can you post the game or position
[d]rnb2r2/p3bpkp/1ppq3N/6p1/Q7/2P3P1/P4PBP/R1B2RK1 w - - 0 19

In this position, instead of Ng4 to try to save the knight, AlphaZero played Re1 and went on to win a mindboggling game.

[Event "AlphaZero vs. Stockfish"]
[Site "Google Deep Mind"]
[Date "2017.12.04"]
[Round "1.10"]
[White "AlphaZero"]
[Black "Stockfish 8"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E17"]
[PlyCount "111"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]
[WhiteTeam "England"]
[BlackTeam "Norway"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "ENG"]
[BlackTeamCountry "NOR"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. d4 e6 3. c4 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. d5 exd5 8. Nh4
c6 9. cxd5 Nxd5 10. Nf5 Nc7 11. e4 d5 12. exd5 Nxd5 13. Nc3 Nxc3 14. Qg4 g6 15.
Nh6+ Kg7 16. bxc3 Bc8 17. Qf4 Qd6 18. Qa4 g5 19. Re1 Kxh6 20. h4 f6 21. Be3 Bf5
22. Rad1 Qa3 23. Qc4 b5 24. hxg5+ fxg5 25. Qh4+ Kg6 26. Qh1 Kg7 27. Be4 Bg6 28.
Bxg6 hxg6 29. Qh3 Bf6 30. Kg2 Qxa2 31. Rh1 Qg8 32. c4 Re8 33. Bd4 Bxd4 34. Rxd4
Rd8 35. Rxd8 Qxd8 36. Qe6 Nd7 37. Rd1 Nc5 38. Rxd8 Nxe6 39. Rxa8 Kf6 40. cxb5
cxb5 41. Kf3 Nd4+ 42. Ke4 Nc6 43. Rc8 Ne7 44. Rb8 Nf5 45. g4 Nh6 46. f3 Nf7 47.
Ra8 Nd6+ 48. Kd5 Nc4 49. Rxa7 Ne3+ 50. Ke4 Nc4 51. Ra6+ Kg7 52. Rc6 Kf7 53. Rc5
Ke6 54. Rxg5 Kf6 55. Rc5 g5 56. Kd4 1-0
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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MikeGL
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Re: AlphaZero vs Stockfish

Post by MikeGL » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:23 am

Albert Silver wrote:
kgburcham wrote:
Lion wrote:I looked again the game in which AlphaZero sacrifices a knight on h6.
I don’t believe this is brute force calculation so it makes what AlphaZero did even more impressive!

can you post the game or position
[d]rnb2r2/p3bpkp/1ppq3N/6p1/Q7/2P3P1/P4PBP/R1B2RK1 w - - 0 19

In this position, instead of Ng4 to try to save the knight, AlphaZero played Re1 and went on to win a mindboggling game.

[Event "AlphaZero vs. Stockfish"]
[Site "Google Deep Mind"]
[Date "2017.12.04"]
[Round "1.10"]
[White "AlphaZero"]
[Black "Stockfish 8"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E17"]
[PlyCount "111"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]
[WhiteTeam "England"]
[BlackTeam "Norway"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "ENG"]
[BlackTeamCountry "NOR"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. d4 e6 3. c4 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. d5 exd5 8. Nh4
c6 9. cxd5 Nxd5 10. Nf5 Nc7 11. e4 d5 12. exd5 Nxd5 13. Nc3 Nxc3 14. Qg4 g6 15.
Nh6+ Kg7 16. bxc3 Bc8 17. Qf4 Qd6 18. Qa4 g5 19. Re1 Kxh6 20. h4 f6 21. Be3 Bf5
22. Rad1 Qa3 23. Qc4 b5 24. hxg5+ fxg5 25. Qh4+ Kg6 26. Qh1 Kg7 27. Be4 Bg6 28.
Bxg6 hxg6 29. Qh3 Bf6 30. Kg2 Qxa2 31. Rh1 Qg8 32. c4 Re8 33. Bd4 Bxd4 34. Rxd4
Rd8 35. Rxd8 Qxd8 36. Qe6 Nd7 37. Rd1 Nc5 38. Rxd8 Nxe6 39. Rxa8 Kf6 40. cxb5
cxb5 41. Kf3 Nd4+ 42. Ke4 Nc6 43. Rc8 Ne7 44. Rb8 Nf5 45. g4 Nh6 46. f3 Nf7 47.
Ra8 Nd6+ 48. Kd5 Nc4 49. Rxa7 Ne3+ 50. Ke4 Nc4 51. Ra6+ Kg7 52. Rc6 Kf7 53. Rc5
Ke6 54. Rxg5 Kf6 55. Rc5 g5 56. Kd4 1-0
I tried this position with SF8 dev, Re1 move giving up Nh6 is also considered by SF8 in a multi-PV analysis.

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AdminX
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Location: Acworth, GA
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Re: AlphaZero vs Stockfish

Post by AdminX » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:08 am

Lion wrote:I looked again the game in which AlphaZero sacrifices a knight on h6.
I don’t believe this is brute force calculation so it makes what AlphaZero did even more impressive!
I viewed the game in question, and felt AlphaZero's play was almost Paul Morphy like in style. Beautiful play resulting in wonderful game to behold.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers

Nay Lin Tun
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:34 am

Re: AlphaZero vs Stockfish

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:18 am


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AdminX
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Location: Acworth, GA
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Re: AlphaZero vs Stockfish

Post by AdminX » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am

"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers

duncan
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Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: AlphaZero vs Stockfish

Post by duncan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:07 pm

MikeGL wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
kgburcham wrote:
Lion wrote:I looked again the game in which AlphaZero sacrifices a knight on h6.
I don’t believe this is brute force calculation so it makes what AlphaZero did even more impressive!

can you post the game or position
[d]rnb2r2/p3bpkp/1ppq3N/6p1/Q7/2P3P1/P4PBP/R1B2RK1 w - - 0 19

In this position, instead of Ng4 to try to save the knight, AlphaZero played Re1 and went on to win a mindboggling game.

[Event "AlphaZero vs. Stockfish"]
[Site "Google Deep Mind"]
[Date "2017.12.04"]
[Round "1.10"]
[White "AlphaZero"]
[Black "Stockfish 8"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E17"]
[PlyCount "111"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]
[WhiteTeam "England"]
[BlackTeam "Norway"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "ENG"]
[BlackTeamCountry "NOR"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. d4 e6 3. c4 b6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. d5 exd5 8. Nh4
c6 9. cxd5 Nxd5 10. Nf5 Nc7 11. e4 d5 12. exd5 Nxd5 13. Nc3 Nxc3 14. Qg4 g6 15.
Nh6+ Kg7 16. bxc3 Bc8 17. Qf4 Qd6 18. Qa4 g5 19. Re1 Kxh6 20. h4 f6 21. Be3 Bf5
22. Rad1 Qa3 23. Qc4 b5 24. hxg5+ fxg5 25. Qh4+ Kg6 26. Qh1 Kg7 27. Be4 Bg6 28.
Bxg6 hxg6 29. Qh3 Bf6 30. Kg2 Qxa2 31. Rh1 Qg8 32. c4 Re8 33. Bd4 Bxd4 34. Rxd4
Rd8 35. Rxd8 Qxd8 36. Qe6 Nd7 37. Rd1 Nc5 38. Rxd8 Nxe6 39. Rxa8 Kf6 40. cxb5
cxb5 41. Kf3 Nd4+ 42. Ke4 Nc6 43. Rc8 Ne7 44. Rb8 Nf5 45. g4 Nh6 46. f3 Nf7 47.
Ra8 Nd6+ 48. Kd5 Nc4 49. Rxa7 Ne3+ 50. Ke4 Nc4 51. Ra6+ Kg7 52. Rc6 Kf7 53. Rc5
Ke6 54. Rxg5 Kf6 55. Rc5 g5 56. Kd4 1-0
I tried this position with SF8 dev, Re1 move giving up Nh6 is also considered by SF8 in a multi-PV analysis.
so it can see 16 moves ahead to equalise ?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: AlphaZero vs Stockfish

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:28 pm

Lion wrote:I looked again the game in which AlphaZero sacrifices a knight on h6.
I don’t believe this is brute force calculation so it makes what AlphaZero did even more impressive!
Well, the other option, Ng4 Bg4!(but not f5, which might still leave white winning) Qg4 f5, simplifies into an endgame that is relatively easy to calculate.
So maybe it just decided to take a risk.
Also, its king shelter/safety might be very well tuned.

Is there a certainty this position is won with perfect play, I don't have the time to check now?

What I agree is that this game is great, as well as the one with the d4-e5-f6 long chain vs minor piece, and one more, with such games, we have had some early indications how much deeper and more beautiful chess can be.
But actually, my games vs the top engines are even deeper and more extravagant.

So that, a lot in store for us, I am able to recognise the merits of the match what concerns deeper play, though I can not endorse the conditions in any way.

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MikeGL
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Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Re: AlphaZero vs Stockfish

Post by MikeGL » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:32 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Lion wrote:I looked again the game in which AlphaZero sacrifices a knight on h6.
I don’t believe this is brute force calculation so it makes what AlphaZero did even more impressive!
But actually, my games vs the top engines are even deeper and more extravagant.
Care to provide a link to your PGN collection so I can update my crafty.lrn learn file?

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