Winning after Qf6+!

[MikeGL]

I am confused. If I didn't miss something from this thread, After Ng5 of white, both Nxd4 and Nd6 (on Nxa3 line) of black was already posted by Peter and both ends up in a win. So IMO, both Ng4 and Bd2 wins for white.

The current belief in this thread is that in the Ng5 line Black's Nd6 line draws.

Nope. I didn't see any refutation for peter's Nd6 line which I have converted into a pgn game:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72065&start=10#p815433

That line looks like an endgame win for white.

[jp]

So we need to compare it with the SF-dev line of Louis.

Stockfish-dev has the following:

[FEN "1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1"] [Setup "1"] 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6 6. Bg3 Qd8 7. Rg7+ Kh8 8. Kg2 Ne8 9. Rxf7 Rxf7 10. Nxf7+ Kg8 11. Nxd8 Rxd8 12. h5 g5 13. Rf1 Nc7 14. f7+ Kg7 15. Be1 Rf8 16. Bd2 Rxf7 17. h6+ Kg8 18. Rxf7 Kxf7 19. Bh5+ Kg8 20. Bg6 Be8 21. Bb1 Bh5 22. Bxg5 Ne8 23. Be7 Ng7 24. hxg7 Kxg7 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Bc5 Bd1 27. Ke3 Bg4 28. Bb6 Bh5 29. Ba5 Bg4 30. Kd2 Bh5 31. Bd8 Bg4 32. Kc1 Be2 33. Bc7 Bh5 34. Bb6 Bg4 35. Ba5 Bh5 36. Kd2 Bf3 37. Bc7 Bh5 38. Bb8 Bg4 39. Kc1 Kg7 40. Bd6 Kf7 41. Bb4 Bf3 42. Ba3 Kg7 43. Bd6 Kf7 44. Kd2 Bh5 45. Ba3 Kg7 46. Ke3 Kf7 47. Kf4 Be2 48. Bd6 Bd1 49. Ke3 Bg4 50. Bc5 Bh5 51. Ba3 Bd1 52. Kd2 Bh5 53. Ke1 Bf3 54. Bc5 Bg4 55. Bd6 Bh5 56. Bb4 Bg4 57. Bc5 Bh5 58. Kf1 Bg4 59. Bd6 Bf3 60. Kf2 Bg4 61. Ba3 Bh5 62. Kg3 Kg7 63. Bd6 Bd1 64. Be7 Kf7 65. Ba3 Bh5 66. Kh2 Be2 67. Kg2 Bd3 68. Bxd3 cxd3 69. Kf2 { 1.23}

[peter]

I am confused. If I didn't miss something from this thread, After Ng5 of white, both Nxd4 and Nd6 (on Nxa3 line) of black was already posted by Peter and both ends up in a win. So IMO, both Ng4 and Bd2 wins for white.

No, Mike, you missed Louis' fortress- line after 26...Nd6 (!) which I had to be shown by him too, my ...Nxd4 (?)- line at first glance was wrong too, thinking then it would hold. (As a matter of fact, I didn't really have one, I just made the same mistake I was smart- alecky against, trusting in an output- line with too little hardware- time and or Forward- Backward.)

Here

viewtopic.php?p=815453#p815453

is the winning line after 26...Nxd4 (?)

1r3rk1/5p1R/1qb1pPp1/3pP1N1/p1pn3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 6

Stockfish-dev says:

+9.24 6. Rg7+ Kh8 7. cxd4 c3 8. Bxc3 Bb5 9. Rh7+ Kg8 10. Bg4 Qa6 11. Rg7+ Kh8 12. Rd2 a3 13. h5 a2 14. hxg6 a1=Q+ 15. Bd1 Qxd1+ 16. Rxd1 fxg6 17. Bb4 Bd3 18. Kg2 Bf1+ 19. Rxf1 Qe2+ 20. Rf2 Qh5 21. Rh7+ Qxh7 22. Nxh7 Kxh7 23. Bxf8 Rxf8 24. Kh3 Rc8 25. Rf3 Kg8 26. Kg4 Rc2 27. Rxb3 Rg2+ 28. Kf3 Rh2 29. Rb8+ Kf7 30. Rb7+ Kf8 31. Re7 Rh4 32. Ke3 g5 33. Rxe6 Rh3+ 34. Kd2 Rh4 35. Kd3 Rh3+ 36. Kc2 Re3 37. Kd2 Rf3 38. Re7 g4 39. Rg7 Ke8 40. Rxg4 Kd8 41. Ke2 Rf5 42. Rg8+ Kc7 43. Rg7+ Kc8 44. Ke3 (depth 53, 0:06:40)

On the other hand here

viewtopic.php?p=815440#p815440

Louis showed that 26...Nd6 isn't White winning, it leads to a fortress.

[Event ""] [Site ""] [Date ""] [Round ""] [White ""] [Black ""] [Result ""] [FEN "1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1"] [Setup "1"] 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6 6. Bg3 Qd8 7. Rg7+ Kh8 8. Kg2 Ne8 9. Rxf7 Rxf7 10. Nxf7+ Kg8 11. Nxd8 Rxd8 12. h5 g5 13. Rf1 Nc7 14. f7+ Kg7 15. Be1 Rf8 16. Bd2 Rxf7 17. h6+ Kg8 18. Rxf7 Kxf7 19. Bh5+ Kg8 20. Bg6 Be8 21. Bb1 Bh5 22. Bxg5 Ne8 23. Be7 Ng7 24. hxg7 Kxg7 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Bc5 Bd1 27. Ke3 Bg4 28. Bb6 Bh5 29. Ba5 Bg4 30. Kd2 Bh5 31. Bd8 Bg4 32. Kc1 Be2 33. Bc7 Bh5 34. Bb6 Bg4 35. Ba5 Bh5 36. Kd2 Bf3 37. Bc7 Bh5 38. Bb8 Bg4 39. Kc1 Kg7 40. Bd6 Kf7 41. Bb4 Bf3 42. Ba3 Kg7 43. Bd6 Kf7 44. Kd2 Bh5 45. Ba3 Kg7 46. Ke3 Kf7 47. Kf4 Be2 48. Bd6 Bd1 49. Ke3 Bg4 50. Bc5 Bh5 51. Ba3 Bd1 52. Kd2 Bh5 53. Ke1 Bf3 54. Bc5 Bg4 55. Bd6 Bh5 56. Bb4 Bg4 57. Bc5 Bh5 58. Kf1 Bg4 59. Bd6 Bf3 60. Kf2 Bg4 61. Ba3 Bh5 62. Kg3 Kg7 63. Bd6 Bd1 64. Be7 Kf7 65. Ba3 Bh5 66. Kh2 Be2 67. Kg2 Bd3 68. Bxd3 cxd3 69. Kf2 { 1.23}

Both lines are to be reproduced by backwarding them with enough hardware- time, for the fortress after 26...Nd6 an engine with the fortress detection code from Joseph Ellis (Crystal or Honey X6 FD) is best, especially if you want to see the 0.00 early and keep it in hash backwarding to 26.th.

Yet if anybody has any more questions to the position, ask Louis. It was his game (the one of his SF- installation back in 2014 with Lyudmil) then and it's his thread now.
He brought up all the important lines and he can help best, if anybody is still in doubt here and there in one of these lines.

[MikeGL]

I am confused. If I didn't miss something from this thread, After Ng5 of white, both Nxd4 and Nd6 (on Nxa3 line) of black was already posted by Peter and both ends up in a win. So IMO, both Ng4 and Bd2 wins for white.

No, Mike, you missed Louis' fortress- line after 26...Nxd6 (!) which I had to be shown by him too, my ...Nxd4 (?)- line at first glance was wrong too. (As a matter of fact, I didn't reall have one, I just made the same mistake I was smart- alecky against, trusting in an output- line with too little hardware- time and or Forward- Backward.

Here

viewtopic.php?p=815453#p815453

is the winning line after 26...Nxd4 (?)

1r3rk1/5p1R/1qb1pPp1/3pP1N1/p1pn3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 6

Stockfish-dev says:

+9.24 6. Rg7+ Kh8 7. cxd4 c3 8. Bxc3 Bb5 9. Rh7+ Kg8 10. Bg4 Qa6 11. Rg7+ Kh8 12. Rd2 a3 13. h5 a2 14. hxg6 a1=Q+ 15. Bd1 Qxd1+ 16. Rxd1 fxg6 17. Bb4 Bd3 18. Kg2 Bf1+ 19. Rxf1 Qe2+ 20. Rf2 Qh5 21. Rh7+ Qxh7 22. Nxh7 Kxh7 23. Bxf8 Rxf8 24. Kh3 Rc8 25. Rf3 Kg8 26. Kg4 Rc2 27. Rxb3 Rg2+ 28. Kf3 Rh2 29. Rb8+ Kf7 30. Rb7+ Kf8 31. Re7 Rh4 32. Ke3 g5 33. Rxe6 Rh3+ 34. Kd2 Rh4 35. Kd3 Rh3+ 36. Kc2 Re3 37. Kd2 Rf3 38. Re7 g4 39. Rg7 Ke8 40. Rxg4 Kd8 41. Ke2 Rf5 42. Rg8+ Kc7 43. Rg7+ Kc8 44. Ke3 (depth 53, 0:06:40)

On the other hand here

viewtopic.php?p=815440#p815440

Louis showed that 26...Nd6 isn't winning, it leads to a fortress.

[Event ""] [Site ""] [Date ""] [Round ""] [White ""] [Black ""] [Result ""] [FEN "1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1"] [Setup "1"] 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6 6. Bg3 Qd8 7. Rg7+ Kh8 8. Kg2 Ne8 9. Rxf7 Rxf7 10. Nxf7+ Kg8 11. Nxd8 Rxd8 12. h5 g5 13. Rf1 Nc7 14. f7+ Kg7 15. Be1 Rf8 16. Bd2 Rxf7 17. h6+ Kg8 18. Rxf7 Kxf7 19. Bh5+ Kg8 20. Bg6 Be8 21. Bb1 Bh5 22. Bxg5 Ne8 23. Be7 Ng7 24. hxg7 Kxg7 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Bc5 Bd1 27. Ke3 Bg4 28. Bb6 Bh5 29. Ba5 Bg4 30. Kd2 Bh5 31. Bd8 Bg4 32. Kc1 Be2 33. Bc7 Bh5 34. Bb6 Bg4 35. Ba5 Bh5 36. Kd2 Bf3 37. Bc7 Bh5 38. Bb8 Bg4 39. Kc1 Kg7 40. Bd6 Kf7 41. Bb4 Bf3 42. Ba3 Kg7 43. Bd6 Kf7 44. Kd2 Bh5 45. Ba3 Kg7 46. Ke3 Kf7 47. Kf4 Be2 48. Bd6 Bd1 49. Ke3 Bg4 50. Bc5 Bh5 51. Ba3 Bd1 52. Kd2 Bh5 53. Ke1 Bf3 54. Bc5 Bg4 55. Bd6 Bh5 56. Bb4 Bg4 57. Bc5 Bh5 58. Kf1 Bg4 59. Bd6 Bf3 60. Kf2 Bg4 61. Ba3 Bh5 62. Kg3 Kg7 63. Bd6 Bd1 64. Be7 Kf7 65. Ba3 Bh5 66. Kh2 Be2 67. Kg2 Bd3 68. Bxd3 cxd3 69. Kf2 { 1.23}

Both lines are to be reproduced by backwarding them with enough hardware- time, for the fortress after 26...Nd6 an engine with the fortress detection code from Joseph Ellis (Crystal or Honey X6 FD) is best, especially if you want to see the 0.00 early and keep it in hash backwarding to 26.th.

Yet if anybody has any more questions to the position, ask Louis. It was his game (the one of his SF- installation back in 2014 with Lyudmil) then and it's his thread now.
He brought up all the important lines and he can help best, if anybody is still in doubt here and there in one of these lines.

thanks included in my DB now. missed that post of louis.
Strange why Depth and positions searched was not posted, difficullt to compare which analysis was deeper. So i picked ur line.

[Master Om]

I am confused. If I didn't miss something from this thread, After Ng5 of white, both Nxd4 and Nd6 (on Nxa3 line) of black was already posted by Peter and both ends up in a win. So IMO, both Ng4 and Bd2 wins for white.

No, Mike, you missed Louis' fortress- line after 26...Nd6 (!) which I had to be shown by him too, my ...Nxd4 (?)- line at first glance was wrong too, thinking then it would hold. (As a matter of fact, I didn't really have one, I just made the same mistake I was smart- alecky against, trusting in an output- line with too little hardware- time and or Forward- Backward.)

Here

viewtopic.php?p=815453#p815453

is the winning line after 26...Nxd4 (?)

1r3rk1/5p1R/1qb1pPp1/3pP1N1/p1pn3P/1pP5/1P2B3/3RB2K w - - 0 6

Stockfish-dev says:

+9.24 6. Rg7+ Kh8 7. cxd4 c3 8. Bxc3 Bb5 9. Rh7+ Kg8 10. Bg4 Qa6 11. Rg7+ Kh8 12. Rd2 a3 13. h5 a2 14. hxg6 a1=Q+ 15. Bd1 Qxd1+ 16. Rxd1 fxg6 17. Bb4 Bd3 18. Kg2 Bf1+ 19. Rxf1 Qe2+ 20. Rf2 Qh5 21. Rh7+ Qxh7 22. Nxh7 Kxh7 23. Bxf8 Rxf8 24. Kh3 Rc8 25. Rf3 Kg8 26. Kg4 Rc2 27. Rxb3 Rg2+ 28. Kf3 Rh2 29. Rb8+ Kf7 30. Rb7+ Kf8 31. Re7 Rh4 32. Ke3 g5 33. Rxe6 Rh3+ 34. Kd2 Rh4 35. Kd3 Rh3+ 36. Kc2 Re3 37. Kd2 Rf3 38. Re7 g4 39. Rg7 Ke8 40. Rxg4 Kd8 41. Ke2 Rf5 42. Rg8+ Kc7 43. Rg7+ Kc8 44. Ke3 (depth 53, 0:06:40)

On the other hand here

viewtopic.php?p=815440#p815440

Louis showed that 26...Nd6 isn't White winning, it leads to a fortress.

[Event ""] [Site ""] [Date ""] [Round ""] [White ""] [Black ""] [Result ""] [FEN "1r3r2/4bpkp/1qb1p1p1/3pP1P1/p1pP1Q2/PpP2N1R/1Pn1B2P/3RB2K w - - 0 1"] [Setup "1"] 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 Nxa3 4. Rxh7 Nb5 5. h4 Nd6 6. Bg3 Qd8 7. Rg7+ Kh8 8. Kg2 Ne8 9. Rxf7 Rxf7 10. Nxf7+ Kg8 11. Nxd8 Rxd8 12. h5 g5 13. Rf1 Nc7 14. f7+ Kg7 15. Be1 Rf8 16. Bd2 Rxf7 17. h6+ Kg8 18. Rxf7 Kxf7 19. Bh5+ Kg8 20. Bg6 Be8 21. Bb1 Bh5 22. Bxg5 Ne8 23. Be7 Ng7 24. hxg7 Kxg7 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Bc5 Bd1 27. Ke3 Bg4 28. Bb6 Bh5 29. Ba5 Bg4 30. Kd2 Bh5 31. Bd8 Bg4 32. Kc1 Be2 33. Bc7 Bh5 34. Bb6 Bg4 35. Ba5 Bh5 36. Kd2 Bf3 37. Bc7 Bh5 38. Bb8 Bg4 39. Kc1 Kg7 40. Bd6 Kf7 41. Bb4 Bf3 42. Ba3 Kg7 43. Bd6 Kf7 44. Kd2 Bh5 45. Ba3 Kg7 46. Ke3 Kf7 47. Kf4 Be2 48. Bd6 Bd1 49. Ke3 Bg4 50. Bc5 Bh5 51. Ba3 Bd1 52. Kd2 Bh5 53. Ke1 Bf3 54. Bc5 Bg4 55. Bd6 Bh5 56. Bb4 Bg4 57. Bc5 Bh5 58. Kf1 Bg4 59. Bd6 Bf3 60. Kf2 Bg4 61. Ba3 Bh5 62. Kg3 Kg7 63. Bd6 Bd1 64. Be7 Kf7 65. Ba3 Bh5 66. Kh2 Be2 67. Kg2 Bd3 68. Bxd3 cxd3 69. Kf2 { 1.23}

Both lines are to be reproduced by backwarding them with enough hardware- time, for the fortress after 26...Nd6 an engine with the fortress detection code from Joseph Ellis (Crystal or Honey X6 FD) is best, especially if you want to see the 0.00 early and keep it in hash backwarding to 26.th.

Yet if anybody has any more questions to the position, ask Louis. It was his game (the one of his SF- installation back in 2014 with Lyudmil) then and it's his thread now.
He brought up all the important lines and he can help best, if anybody is still in doubt here and there in one of these lines.

Can u give the pgn of all the winning lines? I am not getting the results as discussed. hence I will be analyzing deeply now.

[zullil]

Can u give the pgn of all the winning lines? I am not getting the results as discussed. hence I will be analyzing deeply now.

I don't have any pgn files. Others do.

From the original position, here is a PV that might to be winning. You could start with this and either refute or improve it!


info depth 69 seldepth 183 multipv 1 score cp 392 nodes 1310302373631 nps 37939606 hashfull 1000 tbhits 0 time 34536530 pv f4f6 e7f6 g5f6 g7g8 e1d2 b6a5 d2h6 a5c3 b2c3 b3b2 h6f8 b8f8 d1b1 f8b8 f3g5 c2a3 h3h7 c6e8 h7g7 g8h8 b1b2 b8b2 g7h7 h8g8 e2g4 a3c2 g4e6 f7e6 h7g7 g8h8 g7a7 b2b8 g5e6 c2e1 h2h3 e1f3 h1g2 f3h4 g2f2 h8g8 e6g5 b8b2 f2g3 h4f5 g3f3 b2b1 f3f2 b1b2 f2e1 b2b1 e1d2 b1f1 h3h4 g8f8 g5e6 f8g8 a7a8 g8f7 e6g5 f7f8 f6f7 f5g7 f7e8q g7e8 a8a4 f1f2 d2e1 f2h2 a4a7 e8g7 g5h7 f8g8 h7f6 g8f8 f6d5 g7e6 d5f6 e6f4 e1d1 h2f2 d4d5 f4d3 a7a8 f8g7 f6g4 d3b2 d1c1 b2d3 c1b1 f2b2 b1a1 b2g2 d5d6 g2g1 a1a2 d3c1 a2b1 c1d3 b1c2 g1g2 c2d1 d3b2 d1e1 g2g1 e1d2 g1g2 d2e3 g2g4 d6d7 b2d1 e3d2

[peter]

I don't have any pgn files. Others do.

Thanks for answering, Louis. But it was you, opening this can of worms again, you see?

[zullil]

I don't have any pgn files. Others do.

Thanks for answering, Louis. But it was you, opening this can of worms again, you see?

I blame George.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=54487&start=120#p771848

[Spliffjiffer]

hehe, but George seems not to be the most accurate analyzer imo (or i am the one who does it wrong)..he claims that after 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 h6 4. Rxh6 Ne3 5. Nf3 !! white is winning in all lines...did i miss sth??

edit: i took this from the original thread and i dont wanna blame anyone...i did not investigate again...was i wrong?

[jp]

interesting position, right?
i had a deep look over 2 weeks on these positions ... with the help of various engines (and it was a hard but fruitful analysis)...

Did you save key variations?

hehe, but George seems not to be the most accurate analyzer imo (or i am the one who does it wrong)..he claims that after 1. Qf6+ Bxf6 2. gxf6+ Kg8 3. Ng5 h6 4. Rxh6 Ne3 5. Nf3 !! white is winning in all lines...did i miss sth??

It's not him in particular. People (and not just for this position) get excited about an engine playing a first move and then don't appear to care whether that's really correct, or whether the third move (which is the harder move to find here) is correct.