Test Position 2

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Uri Blass
Posts: 7993
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: The Correct Solution?

Post by Uri Blass » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:55 pm

Marc MP wrote:
Karol Majewski wrote:
JVMerlino wrote:Yep, that MIGHT hold. Not sure, but here's the continuation I see:

1.Qxe5 fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 b5 4.Bb3 Rc4 5.Kg2 {avoiding check on c5} a6 6.Bxc4 bxc4 7.b3 cxb3 8.axb3 Qe8 9.c4 Qe7
I will play 8...a5! and after 9.c4 Qa3!

draw!
Hi Karol,

I think you're right, and 8...a5! will draw! This more or less refutes the solution I had:

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. Bxc4 bxc4 6. b4 * which is similar.

So I searched for an improvement and I think I found one!

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. a4! a6 {seems forced} 6. Ba2!! Qe7 {lets try this} 7. b4! *

[D]6kr/4q2p/p3P1pB/1p2p3/PPr1P3/2P5/B6P/5RK1 b - b3 0 1

Now white will capture the c4-rook with a winning Q-side pawn structure! Pushing the b-pawn will give an easy win!

Here is Toga 1.3 X4 analysis from the diagram (score relative to Toga - black here):

Code: Select all

00:22:12.5	0,00	18	627003769	Qd8 Rf7 Qe8 Bxc4 bxc4 Rg7+ Kf8 Rc7+ Kg8 Rg7+ 
00:24:38.4	-5,58	19	706926332	Qd8 Bxc4 bxc4 b5 axb5 axb5 Qb8 e7 Qa7+ b6 Qxe7 b7 Qd8 Rf8+ Qxf8...
00:29:39.8	-2,95	19	868872523	Qa7+ Kg2 Qg7 Bxg7 Kxg7 Bxc4 bxc4 Rf7+ Kh6 Rd7 Re8 e7 Kg7 b5 ...
00:35:20.8	-3,05	20	1046837979	Qa7+ Kg2 Qg7 Bxg7 Kxg7 Bxc4 bxc4 Rf7+ Kh6 Rc7 Kg5 e7 Kf6 b5 ...
00:42:52.4	-2,85	21	1296150453	Qa7+ Kg2 Qg7 Bxg7 Kxg7 Bxc4 bxc4 Rf7+ Kh6 Rc7 Kg5 e7 Kf6 b5 axb5 axb5 Ke6 b6 Kd6 Ra7 Rb8 Kf3 h6 Ke3 g5 Kf3 h5 Ke3 
And CM9_R1 (score relative to white):

Code: Select all

1:15	3/14	6.79	21533083	1...De8 2.Fxc4 bxc4 3.b5 axb5 4.axb5 Dd8 5.Rg2 Da8 6.Rg3 Da3...
3:19	3/14	2.37	54352033	1...Dd8 2.Fxc4 bxc4 3.Rg2 g5 4.b5 axb5 5.axb5 Da8 6.Rg3 Dc8 7.Tf5 ...
8:29	4/15	3.53	137867222	1...Dd8 2.Fxc4 bxc4 3.Rg2 g5 4.b5 axb5 5.axb5 Da8 6.Rg3 Dc8 7.Tf5...
22:22	4/15	3.10	351917628	1...Da7+ 2.Rg2 Dg7 3.Fxg7 Rxg7 4.Fxc4 bxc4 5.Tf7+ Rh6 6.e7 Te8...
29:23	4/15	2.83	455845961	1...Dg7 2.Fxg7 Rxg7 3.Fxc4 bxc4 4.Tf7+ Rh6 5.Rg2 Te8 6.e7 g5 7.Tf6+ Rg7 8.Txa6 Txe7 9.a5 Rf7 10.b5 Re8 11.Ta8+ Rd7
I don't think black can prevent this winning set-up for white. Any comments?
I think that in order to prove a solution we need to refute every possible line that is not losing based on the computer.

Based on glaurung depth 21
There are 6 possible moves that we need to refute(other options lead to mate)

New game
4q1kr/p6p/1pr1P1pB/4p3/4P3/2P5/PP2B2P/5RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Glaurung 1.2.1:

1. ³ (-0.51): 2...a6 3.Bxa6 Rc7 4.Bb5 Qe7 5.Kg2 Rc5 6.Ba4 b5 7.Bb3 Rc4 8.Bxc4 bxc4 9.b4 cxb3 10.Rf7 Qxf7 11.exf7+ Kxf7 12.axb3 Rd8 13.b4
2. = (-0.14): 2...Rc8 3.Bd1 Qxe6 4.Bb3 Qxb3 5.axb3 a5 6.Rf6 Rd8 7.Kf2 Re8 8.Ke3 Ra8 9.Kf3 Rc8 10.Rxb6 Kf7 11.Ra6 Rb8 12.Ra7+ Ke6 13.Ra6+ Kd7
3. = (-0.07): 2...Rc7 3.Bb5 Qe7 4.Ba4 Qc5+ 5.Kg2 Rg7 6.Bb3 Qe7 7.Kh3 g5 8.Bd5 a6 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.Rf7+ Qxf7 11.exf7 Rf8 12.Kg4 Kg6 13.a3 h5+ 14.Kf3
4. = (0.00): 2...Rc5 3.Bd1 b5 4.Bb3 Rc4 5.Kg2 a6 6.Kg3 Qe7 7.Kg2 Qe8 8.Kg3
5. = (0.00): 2...Qd8 3.Bd1 Qe7 4.Bb3 Rc8 5.Kg2 Re8 6.Rf7 b5 7.h4 a5 8.Bg5 Qd6 9.e7 h6 10.Rf8+ Kg7 11.Rf7+ Kg8 12.Rf8+
6. = (0.00): 2...Qe7 3.Bd1 b5 4.Bb3 Rc4 5.Kg2 a6 6.Kg3 Qe8 7.Kg2 Qe7 8.Kg3
7. +- (#13): 2...b5 3.Bxb5 Qe7 4.Bxc6 Qg5+ 5.Bxg5 h6 6.Bd5 hxg5 7.Rf7 Rh7 8.e7 Rxf7 9.e8Q+ Kg7 10.Qxf7+ Kh6 11.Qf8+ Kh5 12.Qh8+ Kg4 13.Kf2 Kf4 14.h3 g4 15.Qf6#

(Uri, MyTown 10.04.2007)

lewisg

Re: The Correct Solution?

Post by lewisg » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:56 pm

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be2 Nc6 7.Nb3 Bg7 8.O-O Be6 9.f4 Rc8 10.f5 Bd7 11.g4 Ne5 12.g5 Ng8 13.Nd5 f6 14.Be3 b6 15.Nd4 Kf7 16.c3 Qe8 17.Ne6 Bxe6 18.fe6+ Kf8 19.Nxf6+ Nxf6 20.gf6 Bxf6 21.Bh6+ Kg8 22.Rxf6 ef6 23.Qxd6 Rc6 24.Qxe5 fe5 25.Rf1 Rc8 26.Bd1 Rc4 27.Bb3 b5 28.Bxc4 bc4 29.b3 a5 30.bc4 a4 31.Kg2 a3 32.Rf2 Qe7 33.Rf1 g5 34.Rf5 g4 35.c5 Qd8 36.c6 Qe7 37.c7 Black resigns

Karol Majewski

Re: The Correct Solution?

Post by Karol Majewski » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:05 pm

Marc MP wrote:
Karol Majewski wrote:
JVMerlino wrote:Yep, that MIGHT hold. Not sure, but here's the continuation I see:

1.Qxe5 fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 b5 4.Bb3 Rc4 5.Kg2 {avoiding check on c5} a6 6.Bxc4 bxc4 7.b3 cxb3 8.axb3 Qe8 9.c4 Qe7
I will play 8...a5! and after 9.c4 Qa3!

draw!
Hi Karol,

I think you're right, and 8...a5! will draw! This more or less refutes the solution I had:

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. Bxc4 bxc4 6. b4 * which is similar.

So I searched for an improvement and I think I found one!

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. a4! a6 {seems forced} 6. Ba2!! Qe7 {lets try this} 7. b4! *

[D]6kr/4q2p/p3P1pB/1p2p3/PPr1P3/2P5/B6P/5RK1 b - b3 0 1

Now white will capture the c4-rook with a winning Q-side pawn structure! Pushing the b-pawn will give an easy win!
Yes, you're right, Ba2 is winning even in line that I found. So the best line is: 1.Qxe5!!! fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.a4! a6 6.Ba2! and black is completely lost.

Dirt
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Irvine, CA, USA

Re: The Correct Solution?

Post by Dirt » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:14 pm

Karol Majewski wrote:Yes, you're right, Ba2 is winning even in line that I found. So the best line is: 1.Qxe5!!! fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.a4! a6 6.Ba2! and black is completely lost.
That is still to deep for Toga or me to see. What comes after 6..Qa7+ ?

Karol Majewski

Re: The Correct Solution?

Post by Karol Majewski » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:04 pm

Dirt wrote:
Karol Majewski wrote:Yes, you're right, Ba2 is winning even in line that I found. So the best line is: 1.Qxe5!!! fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.a4! a6 6.Ba2! and black is completely lost.
That is still to deep for Toga or me to see. What comes after 6..Qa7+ ?
Kg2

It is sort of zugzwang. Too difficult for chess engines. Only humans are able to solve it.

User avatar
smirobth
Posts: 2307
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:41 pm
Location: Brownsville Texas USA

Re: The Correct Solution?

Post by smirobth » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:19 pm

Karol Majewski wrote:
Marc MP wrote:
Karol Majewski wrote:
JVMerlino wrote:Yep, that MIGHT hold. Not sure, but here's the continuation I see:

1.Qxe5 fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 b5 4.Bb3 Rc4 5.Kg2 {avoiding check on c5} a6 6.Bxc4 bxc4 7.b3 cxb3 8.axb3 Qe8 9.c4 Qe7
I will play 8...a5! and after 9.c4 Qa3!

draw!
Hi Karol,

I think you're right, and 8...a5! will draw! This more or less refutes the solution I had:

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. Bxc4 bxc4 6. b4 * which is similar.

So I searched for an improvement and I think I found one!

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. a4! a6 {seems forced} 6. Ba2!! Qe7 {lets try this} 7. b4! *

Now white will capture the c4-rook with a winning Q-side pawn structure! Pushing the b-pawn will give an easy win!
Yes, you're right, Ba2 is winning even in line that I found. So the best line is: 1.Qxe5!!! fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.a4! a6 6.Ba2! and black is completely lost.
I remember seeing this same position on CCC a while back. I think White has a pretty easy time winning in a variety of ways. For example in the above line 1.Qxe5 fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.Bxc4 (instead of 5.a4) 5...bxc4 6.b3 should also win pretty easily for White. You can pretty much ignore all the program evaluations, since Black's rook and king are forever stuck in the corner, and likewise Black's queen mobility is severely hampered by the mate threat. Material is mostly irrelevant here. Computer's also have severe trouble due to the horizon effect, since it will take a little time for White's queenside pawns to get far enough down the board to create havoc. But when they do (and there is no way for Black to stop this) ..... game over.
- Robin Smith

Terry McCracken

Re: The Correct Solution?

Post by Terry McCracken » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:18 pm

smirobth wrote:
Karol Majewski wrote:
Marc MP wrote:
Karol Majewski wrote:
JVMerlino wrote:Yep, that MIGHT hold. Not sure, but here's the continuation I see:

1.Qxe5 fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 b5 4.Bb3 Rc4 5.Kg2 {avoiding check on c5} a6 6.Bxc4 bxc4 7.b3 cxb3 8.axb3 Qe8 9.c4 Qe7
I will play 8...a5! and after 9.c4 Qa3!

draw!
Hi Karol,

I think you're right, and 8...a5! will draw! This more or less refutes the solution I had:

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. Bxc4 bxc4 6. b4 * which is similar.

So I searched for an improvement and I think I found one!

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. a4! a6 {seems forced} 6. Ba2!! Qe7 {lets try this} 7. b4! *

Now white will capture the c4-rook with a winning Q-side pawn structure! Pushing the b-pawn will give an easy win!
Yes, you're right, Ba2 is winning even in line that I found. So the best line is: 1.Qxe5!!! fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.a4! a6 6.Ba2! and black is completely lost.
I remember seeing this same position on CCC a while back. I think White has a pretty easy time winning in a variety of ways. For example in the above line 1.Qxe5 fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.Bxc4 (instead of 5.a4) 5...bxc4 6.b3 should also win pretty easily for White. You can pretty much ignore all the program evaluations, since Black's rook and king are forever stuck in the corner, and likewise Black's queen mobility is severely hampered by the mate threat. Material is mostly irrelevant here. Computer's also have severe trouble due to the horizon effect, since it will take a little time for White's queenside pawns to get far enough down the board to create havoc. But when they do (and there is no way for Black to stop this) ..... game over.
Robin, do you have the entire game score for this position? I've tried to find it on the net but to no avail so far :(

Best ,
Terry

User avatar
smirobth
Posts: 2307
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:41 pm
Location: Brownsville Texas USA

Re: The Correct Solution?

Post by smirobth » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:34 pm

Terry McCracken wrote:
smirobth wrote:
Karol Majewski wrote:
Marc MP wrote:
Karol Majewski wrote:
JVMerlino wrote:Yep, that MIGHT hold. Not sure, but here's the continuation I see:

1.Qxe5 fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 b5 4.Bb3 Rc4 5.Kg2 {avoiding check on c5} a6 6.Bxc4 bxc4 7.b3 cxb3 8.axb3 Qe8 9.c4 Qe7
I will play 8...a5! and after 9.c4 Qa3!

draw!
Hi Karol,

I think you're right, and 8...a5! will draw! This more or less refutes the solution I had:

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. Bxc4 bxc4 6. b4 * which is similar.

So I searched for an improvement and I think I found one!

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. a4! a6 {seems forced} 6. Ba2!! Qe7 {lets try this} 7. b4! *

Now white will capture the c4-rook with a winning Q-side pawn structure! Pushing the b-pawn will give an easy win!
Yes, you're right, Ba2 is winning even in line that I found. So the best line is: 1.Qxe5!!! fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.a4! a6 6.Ba2! and black is completely lost.
I remember seeing this same position on CCC a while back. I think White has a pretty easy time winning in a variety of ways. For example in the above line 1.Qxe5 fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.Bxc4 (instead of 5.a4) 5...bxc4 6.b3 should also win pretty easily for White. You can pretty much ignore all the program evaluations, since Black's rook and king are forever stuck in the corner, and likewise Black's queen mobility is severely hampered by the mate threat. Material is mostly irrelevant here. Computer's also have severe trouble due to the horizon effect, since it will take a little time for White's queenside pawns to get far enough down the board to create havoc. But when they do (and there is no way for Black to stop this) ..... game over.
Robin, do you have the entire game score for this position? I've tried to find it on the net but to no avail so far :(

Best ,
Terry
Hi Terry,

Lewis Grimm already posted a game score up a few posts that I assume is correct. I am not sure where he found it, it doesn't seem to be in the big electronic databases. Lewis, can you name your source?
- Robin Smith

Terry McCracken

Re: The Correct Solution?

Post by Terry McCracken » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:36 am

smirobth wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
smirobth wrote:
Karol Majewski wrote:
Marc MP wrote:
Karol Majewski wrote:
JVMerlino wrote:Yep, that MIGHT hold. Not sure, but here's the continuation I see:

1.Qxe5 fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 b5 4.Bb3 Rc4 5.Kg2 {avoiding check on c5} a6 6.Bxc4 bxc4 7.b3 cxb3 8.axb3 Qe8 9.c4 Qe7
I will play 8...a5! and after 9.c4 Qa3!

draw!
Hi Karol,

I think you're right, and 8...a5! will draw! This more or less refutes the solution I had:

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. Bxc4 bxc4 6. b4 * which is similar.

So I searched for an improvement and I think I found one!

1. Qxe5 fxe5 2. Rf1 Rc8 3. Bd1 Rc4 4. Bb3 b5 5. a4! a6 {seems forced} 6. Ba2!! Qe7 {lets try this} 7. b4! *

Now white will capture the c4-rook with a winning Q-side pawn structure! Pushing the b-pawn will give an easy win!
Yes, you're right, Ba2 is winning even in line that I found. So the best line is: 1.Qxe5!!! fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.a4! a6 6.Ba2! and black is completely lost.
I remember seeing this same position on CCC a while back. I think White has a pretty easy time winning in a variety of ways. For example in the above line 1.Qxe5 fxe5 2.Rf1 Qe7 3.Bd1 Rc4 4.Bb3 b5 5.Bxc4 (instead of 5.a4) 5...bxc4 6.b3 should also win pretty easily for White. You can pretty much ignore all the program evaluations, since Black's rook and king are forever stuck in the corner, and likewise Black's queen mobility is severely hampered by the mate threat. Material is mostly irrelevant here. Computer's also have severe trouble due to the horizon effect, since it will take a little time for White's queenside pawns to get far enough down the board to create havoc. But when they do (and there is no way for Black to stop this) ..... game over.
Robin, do you have the entire game score for this position? I've tried to find it on the net but to no avail so far :(

Best ,
Terry
Hi Terry,

Lewis Grimm already posted a game score up a few posts that I assume is correct. I am not sure where he found it, it doesn't seem to be in the big electronic databases. Lewis, can you name your source?
Opps! :oops: I just found it thanks.... Anyway, I've got it for my records.

He either got it from a chess database he owns or from a chess book.
If he found it on the web, I'd like to know where as well!

Terry

lewisg

Re: The Correct Solution?

Post by lewisg » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:45 am

One place that I found the game was:

http://www.ajedrezdeataque.com/02%20Par ... erbach.htm[/url]

Post Reply