Goodbye Talkchess

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

mwyoung
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 pm

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by mwyoung » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:30 am

I am with you, good bye talk chess.

mwyoung
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 pm

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by mwyoung » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:40 am

I have been a member here since this board opened, I hope ICD and you are happy. You got what you wanted. GOOD BYE I will not buy anything from ICD again. This is my last post on this board.

GOOD BYE....

Mark Young.

mwyoung
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 pm

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by mwyoung » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:53 am

Mr. Hyatt you are a man with integrity. If at anytime in the past I thought differently I was wrong.

lmader
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:20 am
Location: Sonora, Mexico

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by lmader » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:00 am

Thanks Jeremy. I very much support your stance on free and open discussion. I've joined your forum, and look forward to a breath of fresh air. I'm also encouraged to see some of the most respected members here joining your group. In particular, Dr. Robert Hyatt is valuable addition.

Warm regards.
"The foundation of morality is to have done, once for all, with lying; to give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibilities of knowledge." - T. H. Huxley

kingliveson

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by kingliveson » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:32 am

Good Evening!

Talkchess was once a great place to share and communicate ideas for many years. There is considerable amount of knowledge reading the programming sub-forum -- there are two scientists there whose comments I normally read. The General forum at one point was a place to discuss many topics, including controversial ones.

Short story – A New Program Arrived On The Scene. Certain commercial entities felt threatened by strength of this new program. A whisper campaign began to emerge to delegitimize the new program. No official statement has ever been released regarding allegations of wrongdoing, and no evidence has been provided a year to date, to support these allegations.

On the contrary, the accuser is/was accused of wrongdoing, and solid evidence supporting each account of misconduct has been offered. Yet, it was/is ok for discussion to continue, and promotion of the accuser’s program is allowed. Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi.

CCC had prided itself in democratic approach to governing the Forum. Moderators are elected to guide the site by its chatter/rules. During the previous election, I had communicated with the site sponsors regarding the “controversial” topic that was ongoing. The impression given was that they do not control contents of this server.

Graham Banks was elected as one of 3 personnel team. Following the election, one of the elected moderators resigned stating Banks would not cooperate or compromise. Now, just a few months later, another of the elected moderator has not only resigned his position because of Banks, but also quit the forum. Melior morior bellator, quam ago profugus.

In all, some of us actually pay for commercial programs, and do not obtain them for free because of who we know and personal relationships. So when we take positions on issues, it’s usually objective; nepotism does not cloud our judgment. Our loyalty is to the game -- not an individual or a commercial entity.

Good Knight,

Franklin

P.S. I am now registered at the new forum, and looking forward to participating without fear of thought police.

Nimzovik
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:08 pm

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Nimzovik » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:58 am

SHHeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssshhhhhhhhhhh! It's not like one is being repressed here! All ideas are welcomed there in the clone room. The clone discussions can be discussed ad infinitum in the correct room. This place has done a stellar job IMHO. OMGoodness! Are people complaining capitalists are endeavoring to make a profit?? Yeah -and? So? IF business interests forced all discussions of cloned engines to be shut down at this site then I could see where some people would be miffed. So be miffed! So open your own site! That is the greatness of freedom. You have NO constitutional right to not be offended! Hello! ICD owns this site! They can do what they want! I think it quite comfortable to live within what rules are here. IF I don't like it I can leave. So those that wish to do so ... feel free. I have a sneaking suspicion that some have ulterior motives for such muckraking that appears above. Not all mind you. No way. Of course a forum is better with more members.... especially seasoned members. Let us all lighten up! For reals --I lost my password once and for the life of me I couldn't figure how to return here (yes I know I am stupid.) Ergo for months I was s-t-u-c-k at another site (said site will not be named due to comportment considerations. However I am miffed I do not have a R3 +!) until I almost lost my mind talking to teen agers. Hail to the moderators! Down with the communists! * oops did I say that last part out loud? Darn Drachen program*

Roger Brown
Posts: 782
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:22 pm

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Roger Brown » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:34 am

Thomas Mayer wrote:
That looks great, all the trolls are leaving... well, some collateral damage, but time will heal wounds... ;)

Greets, Thomas


Hmmmmmmm....

Thanks Thomas Mayer.

Later.

User avatar
Sam Hull
Posts: 4988
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:19 am
Location: Dallas, Texas

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Sam Hull » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:42 am

sockmonkey wrote:Hi,

I am finished with talkchess.com. The site administration and my co-moderator Graham Banks have made it impossible for me to continue as a moderator, and in a more extended sense, as a member of this community. Before I explain my reasons for leaving: I am starting a new, free, uncensored, (though unconditionally non-warez) computer chess site -- OpenChess -- which can be found at http://www.open-chess.org/ -- effective immediately. I hope that, with time, it will become a valuable alternative to talkchess.com, but without commercial influence over content, and without biased moderation or censorship of discussions in progress. I encourage anyone with an interest in computer chess, everyone who desires a forum where free, uncensored, tolerant discourse is possible, engine authors as well as testers and end-users, to join. There's not much there yet, but that's just a matter of time and your participation. As we populate and organize OpenChess, your suggestions are welcome.

To my reasons... The moderation team was informed yesterday by the site administrator, Sam Hull, that the site owners, Your Move Chess & Games/ICD, want the moderation team to aggressively remove links and any posts which could be seen as "encouragement to acquire software of questionable legitimacy". "Software of questionable legitimacy" obviously refers to the engines derived from the source code known as I--- (I censor myself here to avoid being banned to the CEO forum by Graham), and the request was justified by the various commercial partnerships which YMC&G/ICD maintains. The immediate consequence of this new directive was that Graham dumped a number of threads into the hidden Chess Engine Origins forum, including several posts which merely mention the engines in question. Most objectionable to me was a post which simply reproduced a couple of lines of analysis output from one of the questionable engines -- the problem was apparently that the clone's analysis was more accurate than Rybka 4's.

Graham has no doubt in his mind about the meaning of "encouragement" or "promotion" -- it means any positive or neutral mention of the existence of said software (insults are fine, of course). He's never made any bones about his personal agenda vis a vis the "clone" engines, nor his disdain and intolerance for anyone who demands evidence for the claims which have been made against them. This bias has been a source of tension and disagreement within the moderation team (with one or two regrettable public incidents) for the entire term. Graham, who's done zero moderation of talkchess in the last month and half out of protest against open discussion of these engines, got back in the saddle last night when he heard the good news and started purging. When I protested, my attempts at discussion or compromise were refused. In fact, Graham was only willing to discuss whether the "clones" would be removed from the Tournaments sub-forum, as well.

I ran for moderator on a platform of open, civil discussion. The newest developments make open discussion at talkchess.com de facto impossible. Never mind that there is overwhelming technical evidence demonstrating that IPPOLIT and friends are NOT clones (at least as a counterpoint to the significant circumstantial evidence in favor of them being clones). Never mind the principle by which accusations should be backed up with evidence before they are taken seriously, or used as the basis for decisions to censor or banish discussion. Never mind that "the posts on the Computer-Chess Club message board do not necessarily agree (nor disagree) with the opinions of Your Move Chess & Games, I.C.D. Corporation, or Computer Chess Reports, and these companies do not control, and have no say in, what is posted or how it is posted. Nor do any of these organizations have any say or control over decisions made by the moderators." That's from the Charter, in case you missed the reference.

If it has really come to this, where, in violation of talkchess.com's own charter, Your Move Chess & Games/ICD can influence forum content in favor of their commercial interests, where moderators feel smugly justified simply censoring threads and posts which contain mention of or factual data (analysis output!) regarding or generated by undesired software, then I cannot stay here. I am not a salesman -- as moderator, it's not my job to help YMC&G/ICD move their merchandise. Nor am I a nanny -- it's not my job to protect forum members or visitors from legal, freely available, relevant, topical information or discussion with one another. And I do not want my name associated with a community which hinders, suppresses, deletes or censors discussion, or with moderators who feel comfortable bullying and alienating "illegitimate" users.

So, once again, goodbye, talkchess. I apologize to anyone that I am letting down by abandoning my months-long effort to keep Graham away from your posts, but I've been undermined by the administration and will not continue to roll this proverbial stone up the proverbial mountain. I hope to see you on OpenChess soon (http://www.open-chess.org/).

Taking the high road regards,
Jeremy
(a) Sorry for weighing in late. Our downtown Dallas office building has lost power and shut down my entire network two business days in a row, and I couldn't get back to the board after posting the guidance from Quentin for the CCC mods until now.

(b) There has been a rather large misunderstanding, and Jeremy has slightly misquoted what I passed along from ICD/Your Move. The guidance is simply to not tolerate anything that looks like a LINK to illegitimate software in CCC. No one said anything about censoring discussions or removing posts that simply make allusions or offer evaluations. Graham misunderstood the intent of the guidance - I have clarified it in detail for him this evening via IM. Where the issue of clones is concerned, and for the board in general, the goal of fair and balanced moderation has not changed, and there is no desire for favoritism in ANY direction.

(c) I hope Jeremy will reconsider his decision. I have not had a chance to converse with him directly and have received no PMs from him. I posted responses in the moderator forum as soon as I regained internet access, but I am still locked out of e-mail and will be until tomorrow morning. I think Jeremy has been an outstanding moderator and I fully support his philosophy of moderation - always have.

(d) I don't set moderation policy. I passed along a request to the CCC mods that I received from Quentin, which came as the result of certain members haranguing ICD about real, suspected, and imagined clones. Graham misunderstood the message, performed some moderation on that basis, and Jeremy decided to post a grand exit without waiting to get any clarification about the guidance.

(e) Personally I am surprised that two CCC mods who share an opinion cannot simply outvote and override one mod on those occasions when he has a different view. I got regularly overridden for two whole terms in CTF. I haven't complained, and nobody died. It's a discussion board, folks.

(f) If a member runs for moderator and is elected, I think it is fair to expect him to honor his commitment and serve out the term.

-Sam-

Dirt
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Irvine, CA, USA

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Dirt » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:55 am

Nimzovik wrote:So open your own site!
That's what just happened.
Nimzovik wrote: ICD owns this site! They can do what they want!
Well, yes, I suppose so. But that is against the charter.

Stephen Ham
Posts: 2379
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Eden Prairie, Minnesota

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Stephen Ham » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:56 am

Dear Jeremy,

I support your decision and have registered at your new site.

When Graham Banks was "somehow" elected to be a Moderator here in spite of his platform and posting behavior, I knew the end was coming for CCC, for thinking people here, and for those who value an open and thoughtful forum.

I look forward to learning more about chess engines at your new site, Jeremy. It will likely soon become CCC's replacement. And as long as Graham Banks and his ilk remain at CCC, it will become a wasteland with regard to intelligent posting and free speech.

All the best,
Steve

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