Goodbye Talkchess

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

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govert
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:52 am

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by govert » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:44 am

which came as the result of certain members haranguing ICD about real, suspected, and imagined clones.
Only 2 things to say:

1. Geezzz....
2. Dear "certain members", Go meditate on the message in Thomas Mayer's avatar.

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Arturo Ochoa
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:27 pm
Location: Montréal, Canada

Bye Bye American Pie?!

Post by Arturo Ochoa » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:50 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAsV5-Hv-7U

:D

This Forum becomes more and more ludicrous, freakish and funny every day.

djbl

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by djbl » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:47 pm

i think the best way talkchess could have dealt with the clone issue would have been out in the open. keeping something hidden or forbidden simply adds to the allure and those determined enough will find their way to said engines anyway. had the debate been in the open i'm sure it would have burned itself in time and ppl would have grown tired of it (i certainly have) and just moved on to another issue. all the arguing over clones/not clones and the debate as to how best to deal with it is simply keeping the issue alive. on the moderator issue, well id guess that jeremy is more in line with what a moderator should be...viz., an individual who is not driven by any commercial interests but who simply wants discussion presented in an honest and open way, just free of expletives and deformation. banks is not unbiased, he certainly has an agenda and his posts and moderating is driven 100% by that. that can't be a good thing. cencorship in general is not a good idea. those in favour of it should try living in china or north korea. ppl are capable of making their own minds up, they don't need some moderator to do it for them. anyways, i wish you all the best with your new forum jeremy.

Edward German

Re: Goodbye Talkchess?

Post by Edward German » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:55 pm

Lieber Sam Hull!

Entschuldigen Sie mein schlechtes englisch. Darum poste ich meine message in deutsch (original) und schlecht übersetzt auf English.

Ich habe persönlich nichts gegen Sie, und auch nichts gegen Graham Banks.
Ich bin auch gerne bereit zu vergeben. Und wenn Missverständnisse dazu geführt haben, dann um so mehr will ich vergeben.

Das aber kann nicht die ganze Wahrheit gewesen sein.

Ich habe hier vor 4 Tagen ein Spiel von Rybka 4 gezeigt, wo R4 am Ende ein Matt in 2 Zügen nicht sieht!

Das Posting stand 3 Tage lang hier im Hauptforum, und dennoch hat niemand von den 960 Members mir eine Analyse von R4 gezeigt.
Das ist traurig meinen Sie nicht auch?

Dann ist Graham gekommen, und hat dann mein Posting nur wegen wenigen Zeilen einer Analyse der Engine Houdini, ins Forum "Engine Orgins" verschoben.

Ich war sehr überrascht, um ehrlich zu sein sogar, zunächst war ich sogar geschockt!

Dort dann, in dem geschlossenen Forum, musste ich auch noch warten bis irgendwann einer von 960 (!) CCC Members eine magere analyse von R4 mir gezeigt hat.

Ich persönlich finde das absolut nicht normal für ein Forum wie dieses mit 960 Members! Oder?

Ich bin sehr traurig,
Eduard

ENGLISH:

Dear Sam Hull!

Excuse my bad english. That is why I post my message in German (original) and poorly translated to English.

I personally have nothing against you, and nothing against Graham Banks.
I am also willing to forgive. And when misunderstandings have led to, then the more I want to forgive.

But this may not have been the whole truth.

I've shown here before four days a game by Rybka 4, and R4 at the end does not see a Mate in 2 moves!

The Posting stood for 3 days here in the main forum, and yet nobody of the 960 CCC Members showed me an analysis by R4. This is sad do not you too?

Then Graham has come, and then only because of my posting a few lines of an analysis of the engine Houdini, the forum "Engine Orgins" moved.

I was very surprised to be honest even, at first I was even shocked!

There, then, in the closed forum, I had to wait until some one of 960 (!) CCC Members let me show only a poor analysis by R4.

I personally find that absolutely not normal for a forum like this with 960 Members! Or?

I am very sad,
Eduard
Last edited by Edward German on Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

James Constance
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by James Constance » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:04 pm

I hope that there will be some clarification about what is allowed and what is not allowed. I've been a member here for more than 10 years and would like to see TalkChess survive. But free speech, not censorship and hidden forums, is essential.

edit: I forgot to mention courtesy, which has been visibly declining here - it would be good to remind people to remain courteous!
Last edited by James Constance on Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rolf
Posts: 6081
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:14 pm
Location: Munster, Nuremberg, Princeton

Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Rolf » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:06 pm

bob wrote:Let Graham and Sam enjoy moderating each other when this finally falls apart....
I am sure that Steven Schwartz would have stopped the noise for the illegal engines, Sam and Grah are two very thoughtful and mature persons, and I say this although they had differing opinions to my own. Their mastership could be described as follows, they have a somewhat consitant mindframe and dont change it every seasons, in other words it's impossible to corrupt them.

Although I admire the US practice of openess in science which led to the opensource model, I fear that even Americans didnt quite understand that this concept has limits. Look into the military for example. A community shouldnt follow nonsense that leads to suicide. Academics should understand that.

I had many months now trying to understand two questions. Why Bob supported the Ippo development? I didnt find a solution. When would Rybka 4 be a success: only with a plus Elo of 150? Here I found out that the question is already stupid. Because there is no absolute value of a software update in computerchess when the strength is mostly defined by hardware. A chess software for 36 € which leads all rankings and wins all tournaments is IMO better than open engines on lower ranks. For those in chess who must know what the God's moves are they must have the strongest Rybka 4 on clusters. Top GM and corr players. It's crazy that many interested wrongly assumed that the strength of a software could be seen as hardware-independant!

I wish that at least all the academics who have the better hardware in their brain will come back soon to the forum, that was also in that respect state of the art in computerchess. IMO the actual situation was initiated by outcasting the World Champ Vas Rajlich 5 years ago plus then the dirty campaign against Rybka. Let's come back to a new chapter with respect for ethical bases. The motto should be: No support for criminal attempts by invisible cowards!

P.S. It's self-understanding that I want to mention the sad event from Leiden when Larry Kaufman had to go to the clinic. Let us all wish him well, because beyond all the conflicts in the community we shouldnt forget that we are all only humans and no machines. Let's treat us mutually with care so that we can enjoy our hobby as older seniors as long as possible.

I wish you all the best and may sanity and creativity be with you.

Rolf
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

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Sam Hull
Posts: 4988
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:19 am
Location: Dallas, Texas

Re: Goodbye Talkchess?

Post by Sam Hull » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:13 pm

Edward German wrote:Lieber Sam Hull!

Entschuldigen Sie mein schlechtes englisch. Darum poste ich meine message in deutsch (original) und schlecht übersetzt auf English.

Ich habe persönlich nichts gegen Sie, und auch nichts gegen Graham Banks.
Ich bin auch gerne bereit zu vergeben. Und wenn Missverständnisse dazu geführt haben, dann um so mehr will ich vergeben.

Das aber kann nicht die ganze Wahrheit gewesen sein.

Ich habe hier vor 4 Tagen ein Spiel von Rybka 4 gezeigt, wo R4 am Ende ein Matt in 2 Zügen nicht sieht!

Das Posting stand 3 Tage lang hier im Hauptforum, und dennoch hat niemand von den 960 Members mir eine Analyse von R4 gezeigt.
Das ist traurig meinen Sie nicht auch?

Dann ist Graham gekommen, und hat dann mein Posting nur wegen wenigen Zeilen einer Analyse der Engine Houdini, ins Forum "Engine Orgins" verschoben.

Ich war sehr überrascht, um ehrlich zu sein sogar, zunächst war ich sogar geschockt!

Dort dann, in dem geschlossenen Forum, musste ich auch noch warten bis irgendwann einer von 960 (!) CCC Members eine magere analyse von R4 mir gezeigt hat.

Ich persönlich finde das absolut nicht normal für ein Forum wie dieses mit 960 Members! Oder?

Ich bin sehr traurig,
Eduard

ENGLISH:

Dear Sam Hull!

Excuse my bad english. That is why I post my message in German (original) and poorly translated to English.

I personally have nothing against you, and nothing against Graham Banks.
I am also willing to forgive. And when misunderstandings have led to, then the more I want to forgive.

But this may not have been the whole truth.

I've shown here before four days a game by Rybka 4, and R4 at the end does not see a Mate in 2 moves!

The Posting stood for 3 days here in the main forum, and yet nobody of the 960 CCC Members showed me an analysis by R4. This is sad do not you too?

Then Graham has come, and then only because of my posting a few lines of an analysis of the engine Houdini, the forum "Engine Orgins" moved.

I was very surprised to be honest even, at first I was even shocked!

There, then, in the closed forum, I had to wait until some one of 960 (!) CCC Members let me show only a poor analysis by R4.

I personally find that absolutely not normal for a forum like this with 960 Members! Or?

I am very sad,
Eduard
Hi Eduard,

As I mentioned above, I think some moderation was performed based on a misunderstanding. I have asked the CCC mods to look at your posts and make a reply to your questions here.

Thanks,
-Sam-

Milos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:47 am

Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Milos » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:16 pm

Rolf wrote:I am sure that Steven Schwartz would have stopped the noise for the illegal engines, Sam and Grah are two very thoughtful and mature persons...
Oh noooo, Rolf is back. Now CCC is really doomed... :(

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AdminX
Posts: 4846
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: Acworth, GA
Contact:

Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by AdminX » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:19 pm

Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:Let Graham and Sam enjoy moderating each other when this finally falls apart....
I am sure that Steven Schwartz would have stopped the noise for the illegal engines, Sam and Grah are two very thoughtful and mature persons, and I say this although they had differing opinions to my own. Their mastership could be described as follows, they have a somewhat consitant mindframe and dont change it every seasons, in other words it's impossible to corrupt them.

Although I admire the US practice of openess in science which led to the opensource model, I fear that even Americans didnt quite understand that this concept has limits. Look into the military for example. A community shouldnt follow nonsense that leads to suicide. Academics should understand that.

I had many months now trying to understand two questions. Why Bob supported the Ippo development? I didnt find a solution. When would Rybka 4 be a success: only with a plus Elo of 150? Here I found out that the question is already stupid. Because there is no absolute value of a software update in computerchess when the strength is mostly defined by hardware. A chess software for 36 € which leads all rankings and wins all tournaments is IMO better than open engines on lower ranks. For those in chess who must know what the God's moves are they must have the strongest Rybka 4 on clusters. Top GM and corr players. It's crazy that many interested wrongly assumed that the strength of a software could be seen as hardware-independant!

I wish that at least all the academics who have the better hardware in their brain will come back soon to the forum, that was also in that respect state of the art in computerchess. IMO the actual situation was initiated by outcasting the World Champ Vas Rajlich 5 years ago plus then the dirty campaign against Rybka. Let's come back to a new chapter with respect for ethical bases. The motto should be: No support for criminal attempts by invisible cowards!

P.S. It's self-understanding that I want to mention the sad event from Leiden when Larry Kaufman had to go to the clinic. Let us all wish him well, because beyond all the conflicts in the community we shouldnt forget that we are all only humans and no machines. Let's treat us mutually with care so that we can enjoy our hobby as older seniors as long as possible.

I wish you all the best and may sanity and creativity be with you.

Rolf
Off Topic,

But Rolf no insult is intended when I say I thought you were a bot. This is the 1st time I have understood what you have said word for word! Your English has really improved! :D Keep up the good writing!
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers

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Harvey Williamson
Posts: 1743
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 9:12 pm
Location: Media City, UK
Contact:

Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Harvey Williamson » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:22 pm

Rolf wrote: P.S. It's self-understanding that I want to mention the sad event from Leiden when Larry Kaufman had to go to the clinic. Let us all wish him well, because beyond all the conflicts in the community we shouldnt forget that we are all only humans and no machines. Let's treat us mutually with care so that we can enjoy our hobby as older seniors as long as possible.

I wish you all the best and may sanity and creativity be with you.

Rolf
I can tell you that Larry is on the mend. He is actually playing Chess on his iPod and with a Novag machine someone gave him. Hopefully he will be well enough to fly home in a few days time.

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