Goodbye Talkchess

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Sam Hull
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Sam Hull » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:19 pm

bob wrote: ... without any need to bury references in a non-public place. That has obviously changed. For the worse, I might add.

Removing links is stupid. It doesn't change a thing.
The whole board was "buried in a non-public place" in the good old days, if you recall.

Removing links to warez, cracked software, and other illegal and questionable downloads may be "stupid" to you, but it seems pretty silly to allow such links while banning blatant promotion of legitimate software, which as you know is an explicit part of the charter.

The debate centers on where to draw the line - which is ultimately a question for duly elected mods to decide.

-Sam-

benstoker
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by benstoker » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:34 pm

Sam Hull wrote:
bob wrote: ... without any need to bury references in a non-public place. That has obviously changed. For the worse, I might add.

Removing links is stupid. It doesn't change a thing.
The whole board was "buried in a non-public place" in the good old days, if you recall.

Removing links to warez, cracked software, and other illegal and questionable downloads may be "stupid" to you, but it seems pretty silly to allow such links while banning blatant promotion of legitimate software, which as you know is an explicit part of the charter.

The debate centers on where to draw the line - which is ultimately a question for duly elected mods to decide.

-Sam-
No. You are quite wrong. The question is not reserved exclusively for the mods to decide. Each and every individual is free to draw that line, as you call it. If one wishes to participate in a forum free of censorship line-drawing debates and secret society sub-forums, he now has an alternative.

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Sam Hull
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Sam Hull » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:11 pm

benstoker wrote: No. You are quite wrong. The question is not reserved exclusively for the mods to decide. Each and every individual is free to draw that line, as you call it. If one wishes to participate in a forum free of censorship line-drawing debates and secret society sub-forums, he now has an alternative.
Vaya con Dios.

;-)
-Sam-

benstoker
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by benstoker » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:14 pm

Sam Hull wrote:
benstoker wrote: No. You are quite wrong. The question is not reserved exclusively for the mods to decide. Each and every individual is free to draw that line, as you call it. If one wishes to participate in a forum free of censorship line-drawing debates and secret society sub-forums, he now has an alternative.
Vaya con Dios.

;-)
-Sam-
I suppose this means I am about to be censored and banned from this forum. In case this is my last post before execution, live long and prosper.

bob
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by bob » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:17 pm

Sam Hull wrote:
bob wrote: ... without any need to bury references in a non-public place. That has obviously changed. For the worse, I might add.

Removing links is stupid. It doesn't change a thing.
The whole board was "buried in a non-public place" in the good old days, if you recall.
I don't "recall" so am not sure what you mean.

Removing links to warez, cracked software, and other illegal and questionable downloads may be "stupid" to you, but it seems pretty silly to allow such links while banning blatant promotion of legitimate software, which as you know is an explicit part of the charter.
Again, do not put words in my mouth. Delete all the Warez-type links you want, doesn't bother me a bit. But when you get to "questionable" then things are a lot less clear, and there is a much greater chance of making a serious mistake. Do you have any _direct_ evidence that IP* and friends are illegal? "I think" and "it must be" are simply not good enough. We have those kinds of things pop up at most every CCT/ICGA/etc event held. But it takes actual physical evidence to make any headway. And so far, all we have for IP* is that the code _appears_ to be reverse-engineered. From what is unknown.

While the circumstances are different, we used to have a few very ugly FORTRAN functions in Cray Blitz. We converted time-critical code to assembly, then a few years later we decided we wanted a pure FORTRAN version so that we could debug and test on machines other than the Cray. So we took the assembly code, which had been _highly_ optimized, and reconstructed FORTRAN from it. Looked ugly. Was ugly. But it served its purpose. And it wasn't a clone of _anything_.

You talk as if the jury is in, and the verdict was unanimous with regard to IP* and friends. But I have not even seen an arraignment hearing yet, much less a trial. We have one statement claiming it is a clone, with nothing to support it. If we convict based on that, then hardly anybody will have a legal program, anybody can pipe up and say "that's my code" and offer nothing more. Not reasonable.



The debate centers on where to draw the line - which is ultimately a question for duly elected mods to decide.
I do not agree. First, many of the moderators (certainly the current case) have no technical expertise to make such a determination. We _should_ hold those discussions here, in an open forum, and eventually reach a conclusion if data is presented, or take no action if none is given. I'd no more hand over my healthcare treatment to moderators that don't have an MD in their list of titles. The idea that the moderators get to make this kind of decision is _not_ what the CCC charter is all about. Moderators are supposed to deal with personal attacks, and clearly illegal posts. Not serve as both judge and jury to determine what is legal or not and then execute the guilty on sight.



-Sam-

bob
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Re: Talkchess

Post by bob » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:35 pm

Sven Schüle wrote:
bob wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote:
Sean Evans wrote:
Rolf wrote: And finally, where is the court case if Vas violated anything at all? Who are you to defame Vas although there is no sign for any juridical issue. Is this what you understand under the famous moral nobody shall be stamped guilty until he was condemned guilty? Why are you so prejudiced towards Vas - especially when all other commercial guys don't interest you at all? Couldn't you add some clear statements for me because I need them, just because you were always the highest role model out of computer chess for me...
My first question is:

1) Can Bob support that Rybka is a derivative of Fruit? If so, I would be interested in seeing it.

2) If Bob provides the evidence, then why is the WCCC allowing Rybka to participate? My understanding is only original works can play at WCCC.

Cordially,

Sean :)

The evidence has been provided! Yet it is swept under the mat.
This is just like the movie "Groundhog Day". Someone asks for the evidence, the link is posted, the evidence is discussed, then someone asks for the evidence, the link is posted, the evidence is discussed, repeat until you get tired and give up seems to be the point here.
What you call "evidence" has indeed been presented and discussed, but *not* been widely accepted. You know that but ignore it, and continue giving the false impression as if everything were settled. Your repeated statement that "Rybka is a Fruit derivative" is highly exaggerated. Just as you refer to that movie above, I could say that "the link is posted, the evidence is discussed, doubts are raised, doubts are not discussed but simply called 'wrong', silence, someone asks for evidence again, the link is posted, the evidence is discussed, doubts are raised, ..." until the doubt-raisers get tired and give up. See the point? How is your view different from that?
A couple of points. The evidence has been widely accepted by those with decent programming skills and an open mind. Those that do "not" accept it do so using an old debate trick, namely if you can't defend your point, change the subject. In this case, we see:

(1) OK, fruit code was copied, but not enough to be a problem. (you can't be a "little bit pregnant" nor can you be a "little bit plagiariser").

(2) OK, fruit code was copied in R1, but it has not survived to R3. This is harder to defend since nobody wants to again reverse-engineer R3 as was done twice in R1 (once by strelka author, once by a group of us looking at the R1 binary).

(3) OK, fruit code was copied, but everybody uses alpha/beta, hash tables, all the chess 4.7 stuff, so they are copying too and it isn't a problem.

the shifting target argument has other directions as well.


Without seeing the Rybka 1.0 beta source code, or a version that is close to it, it will *never* be possible to *prove* whether Vas has copied source code or only reused ideas from Fruit 2.1. You know that, and therefore speak of "evidence" only instead of "proof", which indeed makes a difference in my understanding of English.
That is simply ignorance on your part. Why don't you look at what the University of California system developed years ago to detect this exact problem, where students copy source, change it enough so that it looks different, but is actually semantically identical. Once can _absolutely_ prove semantic equivalence between a binary and a source program. Why you don't understand that is beyond me.

In the last discussion of that topic where I participated I presented a long list of statements related to each of the points that made up the "evidence" presented by Zach on his page. There was not much discussion about that, most of my points have simply been ignored. I could say, when using your style, that the counter-evidence is there and essentially nobody complained except you and Zach, so it were valid. I don't do that, however. Instead I say: these points are still open, conclusion still missing.
You can say what you want, but it doesn't change the direct comparison between C and actual ASM extracted from Rybka 1. There's nothing to refute that. And again, if anything is copied, it is an illegal and unethical practice.

If ever these points that I raised against Zach's analysis were resolved, and the accepted conclusion were that the presented evidence is correct, then the most you might say would be that "small parts of Fruit 2.1 code have been reused in Rybka 1.0 beta", which would still be a statement very different from your "Rybka is a Fruit derivative" because:

- the amount of Fruit code that is said to be involved in "reuse" is so small compared to the overall program size, and so relatively unimportant, that it can never be viewed as being a substantial part of Fruit, so even according to the GPL it would not be sufficient to call Rybka 1.0 beta a "derived work" - all under the assumption that the presented evidence were fully correct, which I still doubt in many parts;
There you go. "I'm only partially pregnant so I didn't do anything wrong, daddy."

NO copying is permissible. Zach has presented evaluation code that was also obviously copied. Unless you believe copying "semantics" is the same as copying "ideas". Unfortunately, semantics is an implementation of an idea.


- in recent Rybka versions >= R3, the evaluation (main target of "copying" accusation) has definitely been rewritten, which we know from Larry Kaufman, and
Again, "I am only a little bit pregnant, daddy, I didn't do anything wrong."

- the Fruit author has not taken any action on that area for years, although he definitely knows the facts.
If I write a book, someone else copies parts of it verbatim, a third party discovers this, and I say nothing, then all is OK? That is a new and original definition of the term "plagiarism". How could anyone plagiarize parts of Shakespear? He's not going to complain...


Bob, you may repeat your words thousands of times, or even a million of times, but that still does not create more truth than before.

Sven
Ditto...

bob
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Re: Talkchess

Post by bob » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:37 pm

benstoker wrote:
Rolf wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote: So anyone who may surpass Vasik in the race track of the computer chess world is a cloner,cheater :?:
You're pathetic and legal actions should be taken upon you in my opinion....
Let's stay in the real non-criminal world because here nobody could and will ever "surpass" Vas, because Vas is simply the best. Even the invisible hippo jerks were never better, they looked like that for shortest TC. Yes, "Norman S." is a cloner, insofar illegal and criminal.
Intoxicated on the vapors issuing from the Vas personality cult ...


No. He is smelling a horrible stench. But doesn't realize it is caused by the proximity of his nose to Vas' rear end...

Albert Silver
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Albert Silver » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:44 pm

Sam Hull wrote:
bob wrote: ... without any need to bury references in a non-public place. That has obviously changed. For the worse, I might add.

Removing links is stupid. It doesn't change a thing.
The whole board was "buried in a non-public place" in the good old days, if you recall.

Removing links to warez, cracked software, and other illegal and questionable downloads may be "stupid" to you, but it seems pretty silly to allow such links while banning blatant promotion of legitimate software, which as you know is an explicit part of the charter.

The debate centers on where to draw the line - which is ultimately a question for duly elected mods to decide.

-Sam-
AFAIK CTF is and always has been invisible to non-members, no?
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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Sam Hull
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by Sam Hull » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:56 pm

bob wrote:
Sam Hull wrote:
bob wrote: ... without any need to bury references in a non-public place. That has obviously changed. For the worse, I might add.

Removing links is stupid. It doesn't change a thing.
The whole board was "buried in a non-public place" in the good old days, if you recall.
I don't "recall" so am not sure what you mean.
Only members could read the old board. That made it a non-public place, just like the EO and CTF forums are now. That's what I mean.
bob wrote:

Removing links to warez, cracked software, and other illegal and questionable downloads may be "stupid" to you, but it seems pretty silly to allow such links while banning blatant promotion of legitimate software, which as you know is an explicit part of the charter.
Again, do not put words in my mouth. Delete all the Warez-type links you want, doesn't bother me a bit. But when you get to "questionable" then things are a lot less clear, and there is a much greater chance of making a serious mistake. Do you have any _direct_ evidence that IP* and friends are illegal? "I think" and "it must be" are simply not good enough. We have those kinds of things pop up at most every CCT/ICGA/etc event held. But it takes actual physical evidence to make any headway. And so far, all we have for IP* is that the code _appears_ to be reverse-engineered. From what is unknown.
I haven't put any words in your mouth - the quoted line about deleting links being stupid is verbatim from your post.

You claim not allowing LINKS to software of questionable or unknown provenance is a "serious mistake"? Should we post a list of links to all questionable software to make sure we avoid this allegedly serious error? I would be fascinated to see a compelling argument supporting your notion that the lack of a posted LINK to some piece of debatable software constitutes a "serious mistake" for the board.
bob wrote:

The debate centers on where to draw the line - which is ultimately a question for duly elected mods to decide.
I do not agree. First, many of the moderators (certainly the current case) have no technical expertise to make such a determination. We _should_ hold those discussions here, in an open forum, and eventually reach a conclusion if data is presented, or take no action if none is given. I'd no more hand over my healthcare treatment to moderators that don't have an MD in their list of titles. The idea that the moderators get to make this kind of decision is _not_ what the CCC charter is all about. Moderators are supposed to deal with personal attacks, and clearly illegal posts. Not serve as both judge and jury to determine what is legal or not and then execute the guilty on sight.
Technical expertise is hardly required to recognize that someone has put up a link to dubious, controversial, or unvetted software - whatever you want to call it. A policy of disallowing the tacit approval or promotion of such programs (via download links) until a reasonable determination is made doesn't seem dangerous enough to merit all this hand flapping; it certainly doesn't rise to the level of personal health care and executions.

-Sam-

bob
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Re: Ji there Talkchess forum!

Post by bob » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:10 am

Sam Hull wrote:
bob wrote:
Sam Hull wrote:
bob wrote: ... without any need to bury references in a non-public place. That has obviously changed. For the worse, I might add.

Removing links is stupid. It doesn't change a thing.
The whole board was "buried in a non-public place" in the good old days, if you recall.
I don't "recall" so am not sure what you mean.
Only members could read the old board. That made it a non-public place, just like the EO and CTF forums are now. That's what I mean.

Point was, the old board treated everybody the same. If you could see anything, you could see everything...


bob wrote:

Removing links to warez, cracked software, and other illegal and questionable downloads may be "stupid" to you, but it seems pretty silly to allow such links while banning blatant promotion of legitimate software, which as you know is an explicit part of the charter.
Again, do not put words in my mouth. Delete all the Warez-type links you want, doesn't bother me a bit. But when you get to "questionable" then things are a lot less clear, and there is a much greater chance of making a serious mistake. Do you have any _direct_ evidence that IP* and friends are illegal? "I think" and "it must be" are simply not good enough. We have those kinds of things pop up at most every CCT/ICGA/etc event held. But it takes actual physical evidence to make any headway. And so far, all we have for IP* is that the code _appears_ to be reverse-engineered. From what is unknown.
I haven't put any words in your mouth - the quoted line about deleting links being stupid is verbatim from your post.
Hint: read, parse, understand. You will _never_ be able to produce _any_ quote that said warez links are OK. True Warez-type links. True copied/stolen/cracked software. I challenge you to find _any_ such quote. My only comments have been related to Fruit/Rybka/Robo, which is quite a different matter altogether.

You claim not allowing LINKS to software of questionable or unknown provenance is a "serious mistake"? Should we post a list of links to all questionable software to make sure we avoid this allegedly serious error? I would be fascinated to see a compelling argument supporting your notion that the lack of a posted LINK to some piece of debatable software constitutes a "serious mistake" for the board.
Having grown up in the US, having lived here for all of my 62 years, from having my grand father fight in WW1, by father in WW2, all in the name of freedom and the US constitution, yes, I believe in "Innocent until proven guilty." Those proven guilty have met with swift action over the years with respect to clones. Those unproven were left alone. Whether it be from claims made at an ICGA event, an ACM event, or here on CCC>
bob wrote:

The debate centers on where to draw the line - which is ultimately a question for duly elected mods to decide.
I do not agree. First, many of the moderators (certainly the current case) have no technical expertise to make such a determination. We _should_ hold those discussions here, in an open forum, and eventually reach a conclusion if data is presented, or take no action if none is given. I'd no more hand over my healthcare treatment to moderators that don't have an MD in their list of titles. The idea that the moderators get to make this kind of decision is _not_ what the CCC charter is all about. Moderators are supposed to deal with personal attacks, and clearly illegal posts. Not serve as both judge and jury to determine what is legal or not and then execute the guilty on sight.
Technical expertise is hardly required to recognize that someone has put up a link to dubious, controversial, or unvetted software - whatever you want to call it. A policy of disallowing the tacit approval or promotion of such programs (via download links) until a reasonable determination is made doesn't seem dangerous enough to merit all this hand flapping; it certainly doesn't rise to the level of personal health care and executions.

-Sam-
Apparently technical expertise _is_ required, as those with technical expertise recognize that there are problems with Fruit/Rybka, and that there is no specific evidence with Rybka/Ippo*. We originally _did_ disallow any links to IP* and family if you look back. And waited on "reasonable proof". _NONE_ was ever offered. After several months, we decided that "innocent until proven guilty" was the rational course. I think the decision was right then, and it is still right today. Not what has been done with the blatant attempt to hide the discussions since it seems obvious they can not be completely quashed.

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