Fabien's open letter to the community

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mwyoung
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by mwyoung » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:35 pm

De Vos W wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
M ANSARI wrote:Somehow I feel I understand the post differently than others. It seems like Fabien is "asking" about several allegations and wants to be up to date on what the allegations are ... nothing I read says anything about confirming anything..........
This is also how I see it at this stage.
Fabien is asking for further information and will then need time to study what is required before he can make some definitive statements on the issue.
I think it's great that Fabien has chosen to get involved and I sincerely hope that Vas will have his say too (if required).
If Strelka is Fruit says Fabien Letouzey and Strelka is Rybka says Vasik Rajlich, isn't this saying that Rybka is Fruit ?

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... l?tid=3006


1 2 3 4 5 6
By Vasik Rajlich Date 2008-01-11 12:26

I've taken a look this morning at the Strelka 2.0 sources.
The picture is quite clear.
Vast sections of these sources started their life as a decompiled Rybka 1.0. The traces of this are everywhere. The board

representation is identical, and all sorts of absolutely unique Rybka code methods, bitboard tricks and even exact data tables are used

throughout. Significant portions of the search and evaluation logic are not fully disassembled - the author has left in hardcoded

constants and used generic names (such as "PawnStruScore0" & "PawnStruScore1", "PassedPawnValue0" through

"PassedPawnValue7", etc) which show that he hasn't yet fully understood what is happening.

In some cases, these traces do also extend beyond the inner search and evaluation kernel. For instance, Rybka and Strelka are the

only engines which I know about which don't report "seldepth" and "hashfull". Rybka's UCI strings are used throughout.

The author did at first make attempts to hide the Rybka origins, for example by masking the table values in earlier Strelka versions. He

also made significant attempts to improve the program. The attempts at improvement are not very original, but they are everywhere.

They include PV collection, null verification (and in fact changes to the null implementation itself), some endgame drawishness

heuristics, a handful of new evaluation term, a new approach to blending between opening and endgame eval terms, and so on. They

also do include various structural changes, such as knight underpromotions, on-the-fly calculations of many tables, the setting of

piece-square table values, etc. These changes are extensive and no doubt lead to differences in playing style and perhaps a useful

engine for users to have, but they do not change the illegality of the code base.

In light of the above, I am claiming Strelka 2.0 as my own and will release it in the next few days under my own name. The name of the

author with the pen name "Osipov" will be included if he comes forward with hiw own real name, otherwise an anonymous contribution

will be noted. The contributions of Igor Korshunov will also be confirmed and noted if appropriate. All usage permissions will be granted

with this release.

I do not see obvious signs of other code usage, but perhaps this deserves a closer look. Some of the transplanted ideas, such as the

null verification search, are rather naive implementations of the approach in Fruit/Toga, although my first impression is that that code

itself is original. The Winboard parser from Beowolf which was added to Strelka 1.0 seems to have been completely removed. If

someone else does find other signs of code theft, please get in touch with me and I will give proper credit in the upcoming release.

If someone has suggestions about an appropriate license, and in particular the pros and cons of the GPL for a chess engine and for this

unusual scenario, or if someone would be willing to help in preparing this code and license for release, please also get in touch with

me.

As this code is two years and several hundred Elo old, I am not going to launch any major action. However, 'Osipov' has already

threatened to repeat the procedure with Rybka 2.3.2a. (He did this after I declined to grant him rights to commercialize Strelka.) If this

situation does repeat with a newer Rybka version, I will not just stand and watch any more. In the meantime, if someone has information

about 'Osipov', please get in touch with me.

What this shows is Mr. Banks used his power as moderator to suppress other programs, not out of some moral outrage, because someone took programming code. It would seem now all his antics, censorship, and moral outrages was nothing more then cover to hack for Rybka.

The open letter is clear, Vas took Fruit code, where is the moral outrage from Mr. Banks now. Where is the slash and burn tactics now for Rybka from Mr. Banks. Why does Mr. Banks not ban Rybka? Why does Mr. Banks CCRL Rating List still have Rybka on the rating list?

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:36 pm

Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
hgm wrote: I don't understand the fuss. What Fabien _believes_ is of zero and void relevance, isn't it? The Strelka code is pubic. The Fruit code is public. Everyone that can read can _see_ if one is derived from the other, and if that is a copyright violation or not. Or is everyoone here a complete dyslectic, all worshippers of Fabien as the only person in this Universe that knows how to read? :shock:
The issue is, Vasik could (I'm not saying he is!) violate the GPL all he wants, if the alledged original copyright holder doesn't care, nothing can possibily ever happen.

But it seems the original copyright holder DOES CARE. What he believes certainly matters; it's the only way something can happen on the legal front.
And Vasik said at the time being that he had contacted him,the author of Fruit,and he's alright with the whole case....
What a pathetic liar he is....
Dr.D
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by hgm » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:39 pm

Robert Flesher wrote:The man is a liar, why can't people see this?
Well, being a liar is not illegal, when you are not given evidence in court. To be a successful lawyer / businessman / politician lying is an indispensable skill. At some point, you have the choice between being a liar or a moron. Do you really expect him to say, when he has a 150 Elo lead over all competition, who are desperate to catch up: " O yeah, Ryba is exactly like Fruit, except for an added King safety term and twice faster because it uses bitboards". How long do you think it would have taken the competition to close that 150 Elo gap,in that case? One week? Two,perhaps?

Of course he lies. That just shows he is no idiot.

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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:42 pm

rbarreira wrote:Am I to believe that a professional developer loses the sources of all the previous versions? No version control to keep old versions? No backups, nothing?

I don't really care about the Clone Wars, but as a developer it's amusing to see claims like these, which are either lies or just pure stupidity.
Naturally borned liar....which is a subform of pure stupidity as in the end he'll be caught and it's happening right now before the whole computer chess community....
Along with that Rybka is sinking to the 3rd or 4th place in the rating lists so for uncle Vasik it's
basicly all over regards,
Dr.D
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Xann » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:55 pm

Houdini wrote: Is there a particular reason for Fabien not posting this message himself?
Yes, I couldn't log in until now.

Fabien.

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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:59 pm

hgm wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote:The man is a liar, why can't people see this?
Well, being a liar is not illegal, when you are not given evidence in court. To be a successful lawyer / businessman / politician lying is an indispensable skill. At some point, you have the choice between being a liar or a moron. Do you really expect him to say, when he has a 150 Elo lead over all competition, who are desperate to catch up: " O yeah, Ryba is exactly like Fruit, except for an added King safety term and twice faster because it uses bitboards". How long do you think it would have taken the competition to close that 150 Elo gap,in that case? One week? Two,perhaps?

Of course he lies. That just shows he is no idiot.
There are lies and then there are lies....
I for myself lie to the patients a lot when their condition is serious and I react honestly only with their relatives....

But I don't lie to gain material benifits....not yet at least....

Mr.Rajlich is a crook and it's an undisputed fact now....

You can sense that most of Rybka fanboys has tacked tail and run after publishing this material by Tord....
Dr.D
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by JuLieN » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:59 pm

Xann wrote:
Houdini wrote: Is there a particular reason for Fabien not posting this message himself?
Yes, I couldn't log in until now.

Fabien.
*accueille Fabien par une vibrante marseillaise jouée à la guimbarde*
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:02 pm

Xann wrote:
Houdini wrote: Is there a particular reason for Fabien not posting this message himself?
Yes, I couldn't log in until now.

Fabien.
Welcome Fabien and let me take the opportunity to thank one of the most talented and honest computer chess authors who had revolutionized our whole concept of chess playing entity :D
Dr.D
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Xann » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:03 pm

alpha123 wrote:Well this is interesting. Thanks Tord.

It sounds like Fabien believes Rybka has Fruit parts. Possibly a GPL violation. Who is the current copyright owner of Fruit 2.1? At one point I heard it was the FSF, and I'm sure they would be more than happy to go after the non-Free Rybka.... :P

Peter
I confirm: the FSF owns Fruit 2.1
They are preparing a GNU Chess 6 release which includes Fruit 2.1 and PolyGlot for xboard compatibility (all in a single program).

Fabien.

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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:04 pm

Xann wrote:
alpha123 wrote:Well this is interesting. Thanks Tord.

It sounds like Fabien believes Rybka has Fruit parts. Possibly a GPL violation. Who is the current copyright owner of Fruit 2.1? At one point I heard it was the FSF, and I'm sure they would be more than happy to go after the non-Free Rybka.... :P

Peter
I confirm: the FSF owns Fruit 2.1
They are preparing a GNU Chess 6 release which includes Fruit 2.1 and PolyGlot for xboard compatibility (all in a single program).

Fabien.
Great news :D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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