Fabien's open letter to the community

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Dann Corbit
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:01 am

Roger Brown wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
SuneF wrote:
tomgdrums wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Matthias Gemuh wrote: Why do you then reject latest Ivanhoe versions even if Ippolit were a clone ?

Matthias.
I'd much rather test a new version of Big Lion! :P
He has a point Graham! If the first version of Rybka IS bogus then they should all be eliminated from your list. OR you do have to add AT LEAST Houdini.

You can't have it both ways!
Please follow that line of thought through.
If he adds Houdini he would also have to add Fire and Ivanhoe and whatnot. Do you seriously want to go down that road? What will happen next week when there are 10 new "original" super strong engines for them to test? Oh goodie. :)

This is not all black and white unfortunately, the line must be drawn somewhere. If Rybka is a bitboard version of Fruit written from scratch I don't think it can be called a clone or derivative.

One might even imagine that Fruit was converted to bitboard primarily to bypass clone detection and yet at the same time keep its strength.
If so this would be very deceitful indeed but where is the line between copying ideas and copying code.. It has to be drawn somewhere, and if the code is rewritten it makes some sense to draw the line there, obviously YMMV. (Now I'm sure you're hard at work on a mailbox Ippolit..;)

Also let's keep some perspective here. Copying of ideas is taking place all the time. OpenSource engines have made it possible for any idiot to do it, but there are also other engines on the list, old engines whos authors are so skilled in assembly that they can read the tricks and ideas in closed engines as well.
This is a very insightful commentary.

Here is the problem that I see: There are several roads that lead to the same endpoint. One road is criminal. One road is not criminal but dishonest. One road is entirely honorable. We are somehow left guessing which road was taken (albeit with a few clues, but primarily based upon the endpoint) and making the wrong choice besmirches the driver.

I have no idea what the proper choice is here.


Hello Dann,

This is my problem with the commentary and your comments on it. There is reference to a line being drawn but it seems that the line curves around Rybka and excludes "the accused engines".

Decisions were made then. Why is there this distinct impression of sudden mental helplessness now?

I am not saying what a person is to do with their life - as no-one can tell me what to do with mine - but this bout of indecisiveness and hand wringing is amusing at best.

I am of course not referring to you.....Curiouser and curiouser....

Later.
As far as clones go, I do not know for sure about the legality or non-legality of Rybka, Ivanhoe, Houdini, or any other strong, recent chess engines. I suspect that most of them will have at least one foot on the grey and so it would be hard to decide anyway.

As for "Why the sudden hand-wringing?" ... I think it was brought about by Fabian's inquiry. Since he is surely the most injured party {if the guesses about cloning are correct} I think that it is quite logical to re-address the matter at this time.

Albert Silver
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Albert Silver » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:07 am

Laskos wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
tomgdrums wrote:
Houdini wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:This thread is supposed to be about the Rybka/Fruit issue, not about CCRL or myself.
Your reply would have been valid if the CCRL or yourself hadn't taken such an outspoken position in the debate.

As you probably know very well, the Rybka forum defines a "clone" as an engine that doesn't appear on "the professional rating lists like CEGT or CCRL". This shows how the CCRL and CEGT have been instrumental in skewing this whole issue in the favor of one (commercially motivated) point of view.

Robert
He is right Graham!! The Rybka team opened up this can of worms by calling foul. And yet it seems they were just as foul. And CCRL went with them. So CCRL is part of this discussion.
Hi Tom,

as I mentioned previously, I'm going to wait and see how this all plays out. Once bitten, twice shy.
I've always maintained that some sort of legal action is the only way that we'll get finality over this issue, so hopefully it will happen.
As things stand, it's sad to see how the computer chess community is so divided and at each others throats.

Cheers,
Graham.
Hahahaha, Graham is shy now. Therefore nothing changes. Do you imagine these guys? Really curious, are they paid like Albert Silver?

Kai
Paid? Paid for what?
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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slobo
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by slobo » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:16 am

Graham Banks wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
mwyoung wrote:After Vas stated he talked to Fabien, and Fabien had no issues with Rybka regarding Fruit code. Yes, this is not news I guess if it is a given that Vas is a pathological Liar .
Could somebody please give a link to where Vas stated this. Peter Skinner asked earlier in the thread, but got no response.
He is what I would like to know Mr. Banks. Where is your INDIGNATION
of Rybka. We had to take your suppression and censorship of other programs you deemed a threat to Rybka for using so called stolen code and ideas.

Now Rybka has a direct accusation from the author of Fruit that Vas used code from Fruit in Rybka. Where is your indignation of Rybka. We have more proof against Rybka, then you ever had against the other programs.

I want to know...

When will all version of Rybka be removed from your CCRL Rating List. Since you have stated that no program that is not original will be rated on CCRL Mr. Hypocrite.

I guess this only applies to programs you deem a threat to Rybka.
Personally, I'm waiting for this to play out further before making any big decisions.

Once Fabien says that he has examined all the facts for himself and states that Rybka is undeniably nothing more than a Fruit ripoff and which versions this applies to (statements that he would be prepared to defend in a legal sense), I will be perfectly happy to personally stop testing those versions and to advocate for their removal from the CCRL rating lists (although I'm only one of a dozen or so testers, so that decision would be a group one).

However, there are always two sides to every story and it's incredibly annoying and frustrating that Vas does not say more on this issue.
Perhaps FSF action would be a great way to end this debate once and for all.

Meanwhile, I do think that the issue should be discussed without resorting to spreading false information or making personal attacks.

I've seen members post that the most recent Loop was a Toga ripoff and that the most recent Naum was a Rybka ripoff, so who knows where all this madness will end?
Trouble is that Rybka seems to the only target.
Don´t be so patheticly dogmatic. You are free to test what you want.
Remember:
1. you are a free man.
2. Rybka has its merits.
3. you like chess engines testing.

Compute these input, please.
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."

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Laskos
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Laskos » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:17 am

Albert Silver wrote:
Paid? Paid for what?
I think you acknowledged that you are paid by Chessbase. This whole affair seems to reduce to that, Gabor is choosing randomly to test only some engines because he is confused. You also randomly have some opinions.

Kai

Albert Silver
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Albert Silver » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:23 am

Laskos wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Paid? Paid for what?
I think you acknowledged that you are paid by Chessbase. This whole affair seems to reduce to that, Gabor is choosing randomly to test only some engines because he is confused. You also randomly have some opinions.

Kai
First of all, I don't see what Chessbase has to do with any of this, and I have no idea why you bring them up all of a sudden. What is it they are supposed to be paying me to do? Also, could you show me this acknowledgement as I am terribly curious to read it.

As to my opinions, they are never random.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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Houdini
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Houdini » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:37 am

Sune,

Your point of view really seems to be based on the assumption that the rating list will no longer be able to refuse to test some engines. You're thinking in "all" or "nothing" terms, instead of adopting a nuanced approach.

Again, I invite you to consider how rating lists like IPON have solved a problem that you think has no solution...

Robert

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Laskos
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Laskos » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:39 am

Albert Silver wrote:
Laskos wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Paid? Paid for what?
I think you acknowledged that you are paid by Chessbase. This whole affair seems to reduce to that, Gabor is choosing randomly to test only some engines because he is confused. You also randomly have some opinions.

Kai
First of all, I don't see what Chessbase has to do with any of this, and I have no idea why you bring them up all of a sudden.
Gets funny again :lol:
Maybe you, in your non-random (I perceive now) mind, never wondered if Fabien could eventually sue Chessbase for selling and heavily promoting a clone.
What is it they are supposed to be paying me to do? Also, could you show me this acknowledgement as I am terribly curious to read it.
You acknowledged more than by not denying, when I was astonished at hearing this news. I am too lazy to bring up the thread, but you acknowledged in the post which followed.
As to my opinions, they are never random.
Sorry, I was misled by Gabor. Graham's and Gabor's opinions and test choises are random? :lol:

Kai

Roger Brown
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Roger Brown » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:56 am

Steve B wrote:
Speaking of view totals
this thread here in the CCC has 26929 views as i write
the same exact thread was posted in another forum at about the same time and it has a paltry 931 views as i write
now that's nearly a 30:1 ratio

this of course has nothing to do with the topic of the thread but i thought a bit of healthy chest pounding and struting ones stuff was in order

The Major leagues Regards
Steve


Hello Steve,

:-) :-)

Later.

Adam Hair
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Adam Hair » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:08 am

Laskos wrote:
Uri Blass wrote: The information that I can provide is that
Strelka1.8 is designed to be as similiar as possible to rybka1 beta.
There are positions when they have the same fail high and fail low and when I analyze blocked positions I get almost the same data(evaluation may be different by 0.01 pawns or something like that but they have the same fail high and fail low when the only difference is that free source strelka needs to get depth that is bigger by 2 plies).

strelka1.8 and Rybka1 beta even share the same bug that no program that I know has(not a bug that fruit has).

Uri
Using Don's similarity test, Strelka 1.8 is closer to Rybka 1.0 than the statistical noise, therefore Strelka 1.8 is an exact clone of Rybka 1.0 within error margins.

Image

In the graph, the distance to the common ancestor denotes the degree of relatedness.

Also, Rybka 1.0 seems more related to Fruit 2.1 than Ippo family and Houdini are to Rybka 3.

Kai
Hello Kai,

I have not been able to duplicate your data concerning Rybka 1.0 and
Strelka 1.8. Could you give more details about the Rybka 1.0.exe
that you are using? I have two "Rybka 1.0 Beta"'s :
Rybka 1.0 Beta 32bit ( 2.39 MB)
Rybka 1.0 Beta 2 ( 98.0 KB )

Rybka 1.0 Beta 2 and Strelka 2.0 B produce almost identical results,
and, since it came from Chris Conkie's site, I have been assuming that
it is Strelka 2.0 B ( although the .exe is 98 KB and Strelka 2.0 B is
180 KB ).

Code: Select all

------ Rybka 1.0 Beta 2 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0) ------
 91.66  Strelka 2.0 B (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 86.21  Belka 1.8.20 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 71.75  Strelka 1.8 UCI (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 68.35  Rybka 1.1 32-bit (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 67.71  Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 66.31  Rybka 1.2f 32-bit (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 66.07  Rybka 2.2n2 mp (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 65.14  Rybka 2.3.2a (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 64.17  Naum 4.2 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 63.06  Thinker_5.4c_Inert_uci (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 62.83  Thinker_5.4d_Inert_uci (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 58.80  Strelka R-3-E (Rybka-3-Eval) (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 57.10  Loop 2007 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 55.34  Rybka _4 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 55.24  Twisted Logic 20090922 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 55.22  Rybka 3 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 54.93  Fruit 05/11/03 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 54.32  DamirsRybkaKiller77_w32 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 54.19  IPPOLIT 0.080a (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 53.99  Tankist 1.2 32-bit (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 53.92  Fruit 2.1 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
Rybka 1.0 Beta 32bit results:

Code: Select all

------ Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0) ------
 73.66  Strelka 1.8 UCI (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 68.58  Strelka 2.0 B (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 68.12  Belka 1.8.20 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 67.71  Rybka 1.0 Beta 2 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 66.46  Rybka 1.1 32-bit (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 64.38  Rybka 1.2f 32-bit (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 63.63  Rybka 2.2n2 mp (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 60.67  Rybka 2.3.2a (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 60.31  Naum 4.2 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 58.12  Thinker_5.4c_Inert_uci (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 57.71  Thinker_5.4d_Inert_uci (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 56.34  Strelka R-3-E (Rybka-3-Eval) (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 55.81  Loop 2007 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 53.64  Fruit 05/11/03 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
 53.59  Fruit 2.1 (time: 100 ms  scale: 1.0)
Also, what metric are you using for the distance matrix that is used to
produce the dendrogram?

One more question. Are you using sim03.exe or similar.exe?

Thank you,

Adam

Albert Silver
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Albert Silver » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:35 am

Laskos wrote:
Albert Silver wrote: First of all, I don't see what Chessbase has to do with any of this, and I have no idea why you bring them up all of a sudden.
Maybe you, in your non-random (I perceive now) mind, never wondered if Fabien could eventually sue Chessbase for selling and heavily promoting a clone.
And this has what to do with me??
What is it they are supposed to be paying me to do? Also, could you show me this acknowledgment as I am terribly curious to read it.
You acknowledged more than by not denying, when I was astonished at hearing this news. I am too lazy to bring up the thread, but you acknowledged in the post which followed.
I recall a thread in which you said this and I called you delusional. Is that the one?
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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