Fabien's open letter to the community

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Solution

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:13 pm

stevenaaus wrote:Hmmm... Please stop bickering about things that will (in all likelihood) never be resolved.

The only positive actions are to cease the whole blame game, and accept Houdini and at least one Ippolit engine as valid engines for testing.
I have no problem with Houdini....several Rybka hellhounds a few posts above this one have....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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George Tsavdaris
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by George Tsavdaris » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:15 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
George Tsavdaris wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Xann wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:First thing came to my thoughts after reading the article is a huge lie Vasik was spreading through all these years....that he,Vasik,contacted Fabien regarding the fruit-Rybka affair and Fabien is fine with it and even doesn't care which as I wrote turned out to be a huge lie....
Dr.D
I confirm: no contact with Vasik.
I would like to have a pointer too.

Thanks,

Fabien.
And thanks from my side Fabien....
He didn't thank you for anything you said(in case you misunderstood it).
He just meant it like a "Thanks in advance" way.

And he is thanking you in advance, since he(Fabien) is interested in seeing the original statement of Vasik that you have told us in your previous post that he said in the past, that is:
"First thing came to my thoughts after reading the article is a huge lie Vasik was spreading through all these years....that he,Vasik,contacted Fabien regarding the fruit-Rybka affair and Fabien is fine with it and even doesn't care "

So can you give as a link to his original statement(s) saying that?
•Peter(Skinner) wanted a reference for this.
•Fabien later wanted also a reference about this.
I would like to see it also.

Can you provide it? Simple as that.
And it can be easy to find since you said that he had been spreading it all these years. Constantly i guess, in many public boards.

So? Any reference?
As they say: Link or it didn't happen.
Fabien's intention toward me is none of your business....
It is when you distort things.
He didn't thank you. He thanked you in advance, waiting the reference of Vasik saying those things you have told us that he said.
Vasik said that several times in the Rybka forum in in one of his infamous interviews....go do the search yourself,I don't work for you....
So you will not give them obviously to Fabien also, since you do not work for him also, right?

And one more thing....Fabien didn't ask me to show where Vasik said so,so stop twisting the facts....
Most probably you have a problem reading English. Here is Fabien's words on asking about it:
"I would like to have a pointer too."
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....

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hgm
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by hgm » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:20 pm

Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:Putting something in a big font doesn't make it true.
No, but it helps attracting attention to it. :wink:
I can gather no such thing from the email, Fabien certainly did not make that exact statement, and some statements at the end hint at the opposite.
think he made a number of statements that together are the equivalent, so I could summarize them by this catch phrase:
Fabien wrote:"it was not a verbatim copy of the source code"
"It was ... a translation ... of the algorithms"
"I assumed it was some closed-source free engine"
"So legally there was no issue that I knew of"
The first of these two quotes say that it (=Strelka) was not a copyright violation. The second two quotes that he (=Fabien) realized that. So I don't think my paraphrasing is wrong or misleading in any way.
Fabien says "Strelka did not look like a problem because I assumed it was free.". Now this is an exact quote, unlike yours. If Strelka is a legal derivative, why would it matter if it was free?
This is indeed a mysterious remark. But you can also reverse your question about it: "if Strelka is an illegal derivative, why would it matter if it was free". Fact is that the GPL does not make any requirements or distinction on being free or commercial. So IMO it is totally irrelevant if it was free or not.
My interpretation would be that Fabien would care less about the copyright being violated if that was not done to make a profit of.
One could also hypothesis that he would feel less used, or less regret that he had released Fruit under the GPL. Only Fabien can tell us what he meant by that. I don't think such an interpretation is at equal level with the very clear statements as "not a verbatim copy", "no legal issue" and their implication in the framework of the GPL.

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:22 pm

George Tsavdaris wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
George Tsavdaris wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Xann wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:First thing came to my thoughts after reading the article is a huge lie Vasik was spreading through all these years....that he,Vasik,contacted Fabien regarding the fruit-Rybka affair and Fabien is fine with it and even doesn't care which as I wrote turned out to be a huge lie....
Dr.D
I confirm: no contact with Vasik.
I would like to have a pointer too.

Thanks,

Fabien.
And thanks from my side Fabien....
He didn't thank you for anything you said(in case you misunderstood it).
He just meant it like a "Thanks in advance" way.

And he is thanking you in advance, since he(Fabien) is interested in seeing the original statement of Vasik that you have told us in your previous post that he said in the past, that is:
"First thing came to my thoughts after reading the article is a huge lie Vasik was spreading through all these years....that he,Vasik,contacted Fabien regarding the fruit-Rybka affair and Fabien is fine with it and even doesn't care "

So can you give as a link to his original statement(s) saying that?
•Peter(Skinner) wanted a reference for this.
•Fabien later wanted also a reference about this.
I would like to see it also.

Can you provide it? Simple as that.
And it can be easy to find since you said that he had been spreading it all these years. Constantly i guess, in many public boards.

So? Any reference?
As they say: Link or it didn't happen.
Fabien's intention toward me is none of your business....
It is when you distort things.
He didn't thank you. He thanked you in advance, waiting the reference of Vasik saying those things you have told us that he said.
Vasik said that several times in the Rybka forum in in one of his infamous interviews....go do the search yourself,I don't work for you....
So you will not give them obviously to Fabien also, since you do not work for him also, right?

And one more thing....Fabien didn't ask me to show where Vasik said so,so stop twisting the facts....
Most probably you have a problem reading English. Here is Fabien's words on asking about it:
"I would like to have a pointer too."
Now I'm don't understand English....know what,I done debating with you....go to hell you and all the Rybka team you're barking for....

:arrow:
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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hgm
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by hgm » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:30 pm

Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
Like you mentioned, the accusation that something is a copy of something else is a factual statement, easily verifiable by anyone.
If one has to go through court to find out, that isn't easy, and since not everyone can bring this to court, it's hardly verifiable by anyone.
I think you are nitpicking now on statements taken out of context. What I said was this:
hgm wrote:We might have a different view on this. I think the FSF would prosecute any violation of the GPL, once someone took the trouble to point it out to them. Like you mentioned, the accusation that something is a copy of something else is a factual statement, easily verifiable by anyone.
It seems clear to me that I am talking about going to court here, and that you would not really need Fabien in that case, because "anyone" could do the required verification in stead of him (during this court case).

If that was not clear, let it be clear now...

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hgm
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by hgm » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:33 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:Now I'm don't understand English....know what,I done debating with a nutcase like you....go to hell you and all the Rybka team you're barking for....
Nevertheless he made a very eloquent point, by which your childish replies and shameful retreat pale in comparison... :lol:

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:39 pm

hgm wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:Now I'm don't understand English....know what,I done debating with a nutcase like you....go to hell you and all the Rybka team you're barking for....
Nevertheless he made a very eloquent point, by which your childish replies and shameful retreat pale in comparison... :lol:
He's sticking his nose in the matter for the simple reason that he's told to do so....he's the second ranked Rybka's hellhound here after Rolf and as Rolf is not available right now they unleached the available one to bark at,bite and insult anyone badmouthing Rybka and it's author....

Note that he jumped over one of the most respected members here,Ted,telling him in another thread that his poll is rather stupid....

And all this is for a recieved one free copy of Rybka....how low people can fall sometimes....

Anyway,let him bark as much as he likes,I won't even listen....
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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George Tsavdaris
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by George Tsavdaris » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:00 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
hgm wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:Now I'm don't understand English....know what,I done debating with a nutcase like you....go to hell you and all the Rybka team you're barking for....
Nevertheless he made a very eloquent point, by which your childish replies and shameful retreat pale in comparison... :lol:
He's sticking his nose in the matter for the simple reason that he's told to do so....he's the second ranked Rybka's hellhound here after Rolf and as Rolf is not available right now they unleached the available one to bark at,bite and insult anyone badmouthing Rybka and it's author....

Note that he jumped over one of the most respected members here,Ted,telling him in another thread that his poll is rather stupid....

And all this is for a recieved one free copy of Rybka....how low people can fall sometimes....

Anyway,let him bark as much as he likes,I won't even listen....
It's the second time you say i have been given a free copy of Rybka in order to post good things about it.

First time your post got deleted.
I hope this time you will get banned. :D
But i don't have much hopes since moderators don't seem to care much about people saying unfounded and baseless things....

If you don't get banned i will start revealing unfounded things about you also so be careful.
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....

Robert Flesher
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Robert Flesher » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:10 pm

Some may find this interesting, I quote "

Vasik G. Rajlich,
a Czech-American (born 1971 in Cleveland, Ohio) [1] computer scientist and MIT graduate [2], where his thesis advisor was McAllester in 1993 [3]. Vasik is International Master in chess and primary author of Rybka [4], the world strongest chess program, which arose that strong end of 2005 [5][6]. With the release of Rybka 3.0 [7], Vasik and co-author Larry Kaufman must have found some unique techniques and testing methodology, to improve the already incredible strong former versions of Rybka that much [8]. Vasik is married with Iweta Rajlich, a Polish chess International Master and Woman Grandmaster [9] and main Rybka tester [10].

Vasik Rajlich's interpretation of nodes and depth [11] and the Strelka controversy [12][13][14][15] raised suspicions about the initial origin of Rybka 1.0 [16][17], but Vasik Rajlich categorically denied Rybka 1.0 was based on Fruit [18][19], as already confirmed by Chrilly Donninger in 2005 [20] after early rumors [21] and questions [22] occurred. However, other chess programmers seem torn by Vasik's great achievements. But Rybka's strength proves there is no stagnation in computer chess.

Also,


Interview
Quotes from an uciengines.de Interview with Vasik Rajlich, December 20, 2005 [25], a new age in Computerchess? Two questions by Alexander Schmidt:

20. Alexander Schmidt:
The increase in playing strength of the latest chess engines is unbelieveable. We have since some time with Fruit 2.1 by Fabien Letouzey a very strong open source engine. Do you see a relation between the published sources of such a strong engine and the increase of strength in computer chess in general? How much influence do the ideas of Fruit have on the future of computerchess?

Vasik Rajlich:
Yes, the publication of Fruit 2.1 was huge. Look at how many engines took a massive jump in its wake: Rybka, Hiarcs, Fritz, Zappa, Spike, List, and so on. I went through the Fruit 2.1 source code forwards and backwards and took many things.

It is a bit of a pity that Rybka won't make the same contribution to the computer chess community, but at the moment I must also think about protecting my secrets. It's the eternal struggle for a computer chess programmer.

21. Alexander Schmidt:
We had our first contact when I had questions about a similarity to Fruit in the search, others found similarities in the evaluation. Some people where a little bit suspicious that Rybka could be a clone of the open source engine. In the meantime it is clear that Rybka is no clone but you used ideas of Fruit (I guess all other serious engine programmers had a look at Fruit too). How strong would Rybka actually be if the Fruit code would have never been published?

Vasik Rajlich:
It's a good question. I don't want to get too specific about which ideas from Fruit I think are really useful, but they fall into two categories:

1) Very specific tricks, mostly related to search.
2) Philosophy of the engine (and in particular of the search).

Fruit could really hardly be more useful along both of these dimensions. Fabien is a very good engineer, and also has a very clear and simple conception of how his search should behave.

Anyway, if I really had to give a number - my wild guess is that Rybka would be 20 rating points weaker had Fruit not appeared.




Source :
http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Vasik+Rajlich
Last edited by Robert Flesher on Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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gaard
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by gaard » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:14 pm

IMHO, it is likely then that Fabien would consider Rybka wholly legal at the code level although early versions of Rybka may rightly be classified as derivatives far failing the originality test at the design and implementation level. YMMV.

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