Fabien's open letter to the community

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George Tsavdaris
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by George Tsavdaris » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:03 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
George Tsavdaris wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Xann wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:First thing came to my thoughts after reading the article is a huge lie Vasik was spreading through all these years....that he,Vasik,contacted Fabien regarding the fruit-Rybka affair and Fabien is fine with it and even doesn't care which as I wrote turned out to be a huge lie....
Dr.D
I confirm: no contact with Vasik.
I would like to have a pointer too.

Thanks,

Fabien.
And thanks from my side Fabien....
He didn't thank you for anything you said(in case you misunderstood it).
He just meant it like a "Thanks in advance" way.

And he is thanking you in advance, since he(Fabien) is interested in seeing the original statement of Vasik that you have told us in your previous post that he said in the past, that is:
"First thing came to my thoughts after reading the article is a huge lie Vasik was spreading through all these years....that he,Vasik,contacted Fabien regarding the fruit-Rybka affair and Fabien is fine with it and even doesn't care "

So can you give as a link to his original statement(s) saying that?
•Peter(Skinner) wanted a reference for this.
•Fabien later wanted also a reference about this.
I would like to see it also.

Can you provide it? Simple as that.
And it can be easy to find since you said that he had been spreading it all these years. Constantly i guess, in many public boards.

So? Any reference?
As they say: Link or it didn't happen.
Fabien's intention toward me is none of your business....

Vasik said that several times in the Rybka forum and in one of his infamous interviews....go do the search yourself,I don't work for you....

And one more thing....Fabien didn't ask me to show where Vasik said so,so stop twisting the facts....
I don't like to tell you this Wael, but nobody can find where Vas ever stated this (or even recall it).
The closest that anybody can find is where Stefan Meyer-Kahlen stated that he'd had email contact with Fabien.

Cheers,
Graham.
No problem Graham....
I am sure that I read somewhere that he contacted Fabien regarding the issue and he's ok with it....
Somewhere? now it became somewhere?
Let me remind you what you were saying some posts earlier:

"Vasik said that, several times in the Rybka forum and in one of his infamous interviews."

It's incredible how incapable we are about finding something that has been told several times or find something in an (ghost) interview of him.

The truth will pop up at a certin moment....
Yes but for now your credibility suffers a lot.... :wink:
Well it's up to you to prove that he indeed said that, and it's not just some more random **** of yours, putting words in his mouth that he never said.
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....

bob
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by bob » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:06 pm

hgm wrote:
bob wrote:Apparently you can't read. His comments are pretty succinct IMHO. See the sentence about identical procedure names, etc...
The problem is that this is not very conclusive. If Strelka is a reverse engineered Rybka, (as has been claimed, of course I have no first-hand info on this), the procedure names in it are likely to be made up by the one who did the reverse engineering. (It would be monumentallly stupid to release the binary of a closed-source program without first stripping off the symbol table and relocation bits, and it is hard for me to believe Vas would have done such a thing. Especially if he would have thought he had something to hide...)

What is very likely is that the Fruit has been a big help in reverse engineering Rybka, if the two are so much alike. And that the one doing the reverse engineering made life easier for himself by assigning all the familiar Fruit names to the routines he dug up. That s at least how I would do it...
I thought about this a bit more, and there is more to the story. Let's try the fruit / rybka1 beta comparison we worked on. We have fruit source. We have rybka binary stripped of symbols. If we decompile, by hand, and then match up 1-to-1 procedure names, that is pretty damning, in and of itself. It suggests identical program structures. For example, try to take Crafty and gnuchessx, as an example only, and match up procedure names. You will have many left over in one, because the program structures are not identical. If they match up 1 to 1, that suggests something about derivative work...

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slobo
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by slobo » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:06 pm

wolfv wrote:Hi Guenther,

Fabien did voice his interest in the issue and also voiced his opinion that Strelka is definitely a Fruit clone. On the other hand we know that Rajlich said that Strelka is actually Rybka. For me that spells that Fabien did issue a straightforward message. Thus Fabien voiced his opinion, the way I read it.
and me too.
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."

Dann Corbit
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:09 pm

slobo wrote:
wolfv wrote:Hi Guenther,

Fabien did voice his interest in the issue and also voiced his opinion that Strelka is definitely a Fruit clone. On the other hand we know that Rajlich said that Strelka is actually Rybka. For me that spells that Fabien did issue a straightforward message. Thus Fabien voiced his opinion, the way I read it.
and me too.
I guess that Fabian right now is gathering the facts so that he can make up his mind about what happened. Instead of reading between the lines and deciding what we think he might mean, I suggest that in a few days he will simply tell us his opinion.

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George Tsavdaris
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by George Tsavdaris » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:10 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Peter Skinner wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
George Tsavdaris wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Xann wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:First thing came to my thoughts after reading the article is a huge lie Vasik was spreading through all these years....that he,Vasik,contacted Fabien regarding the fruit-Rybka affair and Fabien is fine with it and even doesn't care which as I wrote turned out to be a huge lie....
Dr.D
I confirm: no contact with Vasik.
I would like to have a pointer too.

Thanks,

Fabien.
And thanks from my side Fabien....
He didn't thank you for anything you said(in case you misunderstood it).
He just meant it like a "Thanks in advance" way.

And he is thanking you in advance, since he(Fabien) is interested in seeing the original statement of Vasik that you have told us in your previous post that he said in the past, that is:
"First thing came to my thoughts after reading the article is a huge lie Vasik was spreading through all these years....that he,Vasik,contacted Fabien regarding the fruit-Rybka affair and Fabien is fine with it and even doesn't care "

So can you give as a link to his original statement(s) saying that?
•Peter(Skinner) wanted a reference for this.
•Fabien later wanted also a reference about this.
I would like to see it also.

Can you provide it? Simple as that.
And it can be easy to find since you said that he had been spreading it all these years. Constantly i guess, in many public boards.

So? Any reference?
As they say: Link or it didn't happen.
Fabien's intention toward me is none of your business....

Vasik said that several times in the Rybka forum and in one of his infamous interviews....go do the search yourself,I don't work for you....

And one more thing....Fabien didn't ask me to show where Vasik said so,so stop twisting the facts....
I have spent the better part of two days trying to find that quote, and I simply can't.

So if you have a link to it, I would greatly appreciate it. Being that Fabian states that he never knew this whole situation has been happening, it would certainly shed some light on some of my own conclusions to see it in print that Vas said the above statement.

Everyone on here knows I am not a Rybka fan boy.. hell I was one of the first people to publicly state Rybka was a Fruit clone.

So please.. if you have a link to it, I would really appreciate it being sent to me. Even a PM with it is fine. I have searched through 5 years of interviews and can't seem to find it.

Peter
No problem Peter....if I find the link I will post it here....

The problem is that I have to search through tons of posts to find a needle in the hay hill....

But I am sure that Vasik said that....He said it and the truth will come out one way or the other....
Dr.D
I have searched all posts of Vasik in rybkaforum having the words Fruit or Fabien or contacted or contact or email and none of them had an issue about what are you saying.

So:
a) you either lying putting words to Vaisk mouth that he never told for just throwing more of your anti-Rybka stuff. You thought you can escape from this but you can't.
b) your memory failed you.
c) Posts in the rybkaforum about that have been removed for some reason, perhaps when they saw this thread looking for such Vasik's statement.

Personally i think it's a) since you are just constantly throwing any random statement you can for making Rybka or Vasik look bad.
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....

Roger Brown
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by Roger Brown » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:12 pm

George Tsavdaris wrote: First time your post got deleted.
I hope this time you will get banned. :D
But i don't have much hopes since moderators don't seem to care much about people saying unfounded and baseless things....

If you don't get banned i will start revealing unfounded things about you also so be careful.



Hello George,

Clearly you are correct about the
moderators don't seem to care much about people saying unfounded and baseless things
statement as I am perfectly alright with your unfounded and baseless statement about the moderators made right here.

:-)

By all means proceed on this line without taking time to note the several attempts I have made to ease the tension out of this debate and address those memberes who feel that they should insult those whose opinions differ from theirs.

I do not intend to follow anyone's hints or advice about banning a member and, in considering your statement to reveal unfounded things, isn't there a burden of behaviour on your shoulders to elevate those you come in contact with instead of joining them in the mess you seemingly abhor?

Later.

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:13 pm

George Tsavdaris wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
George Tsavdaris wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Xann wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:First thing came to my thoughts after reading the article is a huge lie Vasik was spreading through all these years....that he,Vasik,contacted Fabien regarding the fruit-Rybka affair and Fabien is fine with it and even doesn't care which as I wrote turned out to be a huge lie....
Dr.D
I confirm: no contact with Vasik.
I would like to have a pointer too.

Thanks,

Fabien.
And thanks from my side Fabien....
He didn't thank you for anything you said(in case you misunderstood it).
He just meant it like a "Thanks in advance" way.

And he is thanking you in advance, since he(Fabien) is interested in seeing the original statement of Vasik that you have told us in your previous post that he said in the past, that is:
"First thing came to my thoughts after reading the article is a huge lie Vasik was spreading through all these years....that he,Vasik,contacted Fabien regarding the fruit-Rybka affair and Fabien is fine with it and even doesn't care "

So can you give as a link to his original statement(s) saying that?
•Peter(Skinner) wanted a reference for this.
•Fabien later wanted also a reference about this.
I would like to see it also.

Can you provide it? Simple as that.
And it can be easy to find since you said that he had been spreading it all these years. Constantly i guess, in many public boards.

So? Any reference?
As they say: Link or it didn't happen.
Fabien's intention toward me is none of your business....

Vasik said that several times in the Rybka forum and in one of his infamous interviews....go do the search yourself,I don't work for you....

And one more thing....Fabien didn't ask me to show where Vasik said so,so stop twisting the facts....
I don't like to tell you this Wael, but nobody can find where Vas ever stated this (or even recall it).
The closest that anybody can find is where Stefan Meyer-Kahlen stated that he'd had email contact with Fabien.

Cheers,
Graham.
No problem Graham....
I am sure that I read somewhere that he contacted Fabien regarding the issue and he's ok with it....
Somewhere? now it became somewhere?
Let me remind you what you were saying some posts earlier:

"Vasik said that, several times in the Rybka forum and in one of his infamous interviews."

It's incredible how incapable we are about finding something that has been told several times or find something in an (ghost) interview of him.

The truth will pop up at a certin moment....
Yes but for now your credibility suffers a lot.... :wink:
Well it's up to you to prove that he indeed said that, and it's not just some more random **** of yours, putting words in his mouth that he never said.
Let me reming you to shut up :arrow:
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

Roger Brown
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Re: Solution

Post by Roger Brown » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:17 pm

hgm wrote:Well, it is clear that there are quite a few people that are monomanic about nclusion of Houdini in the CCRL testing.

"Rybka a derivative of Fruit? Then you must test Houdini!"
"Stockfish surpasses Rybka? Then you must test Houdini!"
"Your neigbor's dog crapped at your doorstep? Then you must test Houdini!"

Etc, etc.


Hello H.G.,

I could care less about what these groups test. It is not as if my chess experience revolved around them.

However I do find the various arguments that are made quite interesting.

Not a lot of light, just positions taken and daggers drawn.

Thank goodness it is all just a hobby!

Suppose it was serious, like football (not soccer!!)?

Later.

Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:42 pm

hgm wrote:If re-writing should be considered cloning is not a matter of law, but of opinion. Like I stated before, I consider all existing engines clones of Shannon's work. But what good does that insight do me?
We are not talking about law, we are talking about the gpl and license agrements.

If you take the source code of Fruit, change it until every line is changed, the new program is still under gpl protection. Publishing it without sources and GPL license is illegal. Hard to pinch but illegal. Is this so hard to understand? When will you finally accept that?

Reading the Fruit sources, build your own engine with the ideas is fine. Using other common ideas is fine. Copying one single line out of Fruit is violating the gpl.

Your shannon clone case is misplaced. Your way of argument is rude. Noone here ever said that it is illegal to take ideas from GPL'ed code. Thats what you always try to imply. I am really sick of this kind of discussions.

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George Tsavdaris
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by George Tsavdaris » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:48 pm

Roger Brown wrote: By all means proceed on this line without taking time to note the several attempts I have made to ease the tension out of this debate and address those memberes who feel that they should insult those whose opinions differ from theirs.
The tension can't be cooled off. Because the same people will say the same stupid things over and over again killing any kind of logic there is(was) in this forum.

I do not intend to follow anyone's hints or advice about banning a member and, in considering your statement to reveal unfounded things, isn't there a burden of behaviour on your shoulders to elevate those you come in contact with instead of joining them in the mess you seemingly abhor?
No. I have said that to Steve(the previous moderator) also. I will deliberately try to create fuss and throw woods to the fire just in case moderators will see what is happening with some guys.

If you don't see it (i wonder why) then this is not a place for me.

Mr Wael constantly is saying every kind of illogical things about Rybka and Vasik, and constantly trying to degrade and dishonor Rybka or Vasik.
I would have no problem if he just said his opinion based on facts. But the problem is he distorts facts or more commonly he doesn't present any!

And when things are becoming difficult and you push him to the limit(like i did) he starts insulting me for example. Saying twice the same thing. Directly saying it. That i received a free copy of Rybka from Vasik in order to protect Rybka in some way here and say good things. He also told me to go to hell and shut up among other similar things.

So yeah if he escapes once again from this, i will become a similar troll and accuse every day any random member here with unfounded and totally random things like (totally random examples) Graham Banks received a copy of Hiarcs in order to say good things about it here, or john dalhem received some money from SMK in order to protect Shredder and show only good results of it in his tests, etc etc.

Every single day i will do that! It's the exact same things Wael did with me and some other members.

If he is allowed to do that, then i am too. If he escaped 3-4 times with this, i should escape too.

I'm not behaving childishly i'm just trying to bring logic back to this forum. That's why i'm creating this fuss. To make bold his posts in order you, the moderators, to see them and see how illogical and out of charter they are.
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....

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