Fabien's open letter to the community

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Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:51 am

hgm wrote:nonsense.
hgm wrote:the Earth is flat...

Xann
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by Xann » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:52 am

Graham Banks wrote:Somebody has posted a back up copy of that thread if you want to go take another look:
http://rybka.atspace.us/clon.htm
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... l?tid=6772
Thanks!

Back up copy?
Are you suggesting that the 2008 thread cannot be found by search anymore?

Somebody called "duncan" posted the following in this thread (this is an extract):
---
Stelka is not a clone, it's a Fraud. It is a direct Reverse Engineer of Rybka, and I can show you the exact constants, the exact math taken from Rybka, every function call in exactly the same location being passed exactly the same arguments, the same values and the same constants. A *direct* reverse engineering effort. There is no original content in Strelka, it is all a direct rip-off with some chunks of stuff left out.
---

Anyone remembers this or knows who "duncan" is?
The content of his post looks interesting too.

Now why would this precise thread move around a lot in 2011, I have no idea.

Fabien.

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Graham Banks
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by Graham Banks » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:54 am

Xann wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:Somebody has posted a back up copy of that thread if you want to go take another look:
http://rybka.atspace.us/clon.htm
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... l?tid=6772
Thanks!

Back up copy?
Are you suggesting that the 2008 thread cannot be found by search anymore?

Somebody called "duncan" posted the following in this thread (this is an extract):
---
Stelka is not a clone, it's a Fraud. It is a direct Reverse Engineer of Rybka, and I can show you the exact constants, the exact math taken from Rybka, every function call in exactly the same location being passed exactly the same arguments, the same values and the same constants. A *direct* reverse engineering effort. There is no original content in Strelka, it is all a direct rip-off with some chunks of stuff left out.
---

Anyone remembers this or knows who "duncan" is?
The content of his post looks interesting too.

Now why would this precise thread move around a lot in 2011, I have no idea.

Fabien.
I'm afraid that I don't have the answers to any of those questions either. Perhaps somebody else might be able to help.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

Xann
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by Xann » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:55 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Xann wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:Wael - it was Stefan Meyer-Kahlen who had an exchange of emails with Fabien. You misread his post. Nobody can find any comment by Vas anywhere that he had contacted Fabien.
I know that you're angry that you feel let down by Vas, but facts are important.
I remember the contact with SMK, who I also met at WCCC 2005.

And you never know what this just reminds me of.
On Saturday I also read a post along the lines "But Fabien met Vasik at WCCC 2005 and did not say anything so he must be OK with Vasik".
This post was obviously not from Vasik, so there is much less of a chance that anyone remembers.
However it might be what Wael is referring to, who knows?

No Vasik at WCCC 2005 though.

Fabien.
You need to be very careful about what is true and what is not true.
Personally, I cannot recall Vas saying either of these things.

Cheers,
Graham.
I don't understand.
Either of what?

I did not mention Vasik saying anything in my post.

Fabien.

Gian-Carlo Pascutto
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Gian-Carlo Pascutto » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:56 am

Xann wrote: Maybe we can ask other people whether they would consider it a new engine.
What people think is in some way a moral issue. I never had the impression there were much people in computer chess concerned about morals. The interesting thing is if it is legal or not. (This, not much people care about either :))

This is an interesting article on the subject, written by a lawyer which specializes in free software:

http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/113252

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Graham Banks
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by Graham Banks » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:57 am

Xann wrote:
Graham Banks wrote: You need to be very careful about what is true and what is not true.
Personally, I cannot recall Vas saying either of these things.

Cheers,
Graham.
I don't understand.
Either of what?

I did not mention Vasik saying anything in my post.

Fabien.
No problem . Misunderstanding.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

Uri Blass
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Uri Blass » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:58 am

Xann wrote:
SuneF wrote:I took a brief at look at Fruit v2.1.2 and compared it to Strelka 2.0, there are many differences though.

* Strelka is all bitboard Fruit is not.
* Strelka has multiple specialized search routines for check and null windows, Fruit does not.
* Evaluation and move selection looks quite different.
Looks are not so important.

Several experts that possibly don't want to be mentioned plus myself concluded that Strelka contains a large amount of Fruit algorithms.
Ryan, however, did not see Fruit in Strelka.
Anthony concluded that it was perhaps a modified version of Fritz 5.
Anthony is most certainly an expert.

How are these differences possible?
It's because I, and I assume some others as well, look "through" the code all the way to what it computes (the mathematical function that the code implements).
And we compare what Strelka computes with what Fruit computes.
"What", not "how".
And we find a match.

Bob, does this makes sense to you?

Fabien.
The what is clearly not the same.

1)Fruit clearly has endgame knowledge that strelka does not have.
2)The mathrmatical function that the code implement is not the same(there are difference weights and strelka has material imbalance table that fruit does not have)

I compare the "what" simply by looking at analysis of different positions.
I can see that the what is often the same between Strelka1.8 and Rybka1 beta and I am not talking only about the same static evaluation but also about the same fail low or fail high behaviour(see my post early in this thread about strelka1.8 and Rybka1 beta analysis of the opening position when white starts without a queen).

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Watchman
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Re: ......Any answer to this Mr Wael??

Post by Watchman » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:00 am

Xann wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:Somebody has posted a back up copy of that thread if you want to go take another look:
http://rybka.atspace.us/clon.htm
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... l?tid=6772
Thanks!

Back up copy?
Are you suggesting that the 2008 thread cannot be found by search anymore?
Felix Kling on RybkaForum wrote: for those wondering why the other thread disappeared: I made a mistake when trying to merge threads :(
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... l?tid=6772
Rob O. / Watchman

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Watchman
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Watchman » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:04 am

Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: I never had the impression there were much people in computer chess concerned about morals. The interesting thing is if it is legal or not. (This, not much people care about either :))
Hi Gian,

There are still a few of us around that do care about both. :-P
Rob O. / Watchman

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michiguel
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by michiguel » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:10 am

Laskos wrote:
michiguel wrote:
In the data you sent me before, Glaurung is closer to Fruit than R1 or Strelka to Fruit, which makes me doubt of the "stylistic" relationship between R1 or S to F. In Adam's data and Michael Hart's, when they included more engines, the relation between S and F fell apart. More engines got in between (but I am saying this without checking details). I always saw distinct branches.

Of course, this does not mean absence of cloning or confirmation of it (the material tables may be a dominant factor in changing the "style" of the engine) but I am not sure we can say Strelka's style is close to Fruit more than Glaurung's.

It is very clear, Strelka's "style" is w/o question Rybka's.

Miguel
Using my data, in your tree (not the dendrite), Fruit appears as an isolated engine, which, I am sorry to say, is unlikely, Fruit being an inspiration to many.
That is because you did not include more engines. When you do, Strelka and Fruit fall in complete difference branches.

For instance, I just found:
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... =&start=83

Miguel

We are using different clustering methods, for now I trust my graph better, all obvious things are confirmed, and there are some surprises too (you know :) ).

Disregarding this,

The fact is, my point (1) stands, _therefore_ it is up to Fabien to make claims about the relation between Strelka and Fruit (with implications on Rybka 1.0 Beta).

Kai

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