Fabien's open letter to the community

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Rolf
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Rolf » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:09 pm

AdminX wrote:
Graham: shortened by Rolf
Just one question Bob. What happens if this case is tried by the FSF (and I hope it is because we all want to see the matter resolved with some finality), and Vas is cleared?

Bob: shortened by Rolf
My opinion won't change however. We can argue forever about how much he copied, but there is no doubt he copied. Fabien could almost certainly win a civil trial, but what damages could he be awarded since his program was not commercial, his reputation has not been damaged. He has just been "ripped off"... So where this goes is most likely nowhere... Typically a FSF action stops at the point where the copying party agrees to provide the source... So there is always a way out...
Ted Summer: shortened by Rolf
Graham, A expert has spoken, but lets be honest here, you still will not accept it. It does not change your mind one way or the other. So what is the point of your question? In the above statement even if Vas were convicted, I don't think you would accept it, only if he were found not guilty would you agree.[/quote]

Ted, please tell us, why Bob were tolerably staying by his opinion while you utilize the concept of honesty against Graham, if he dared to act like Bob? How could this be an honest proceduring? And BTW Graham had made clear that he would accept any FSF outcome but of course he reserved to stay to his opinion, like Bob did it too.

Already 5 years ago, when the arguments were starting against Vas or against Rybka as some tried to use care, I supposed that we had a campaign whose sole intent was to make and win a case against Vas WITHOUT even having started a legal case of justice. And we have still the same situation.

In this forum we have members who are deeply convinced of an existing wrongdoing. I understood this already 5 years ago and propsed therefore to begin the juridical issue of a court case.

But - to my surprise this wasnt what happened. First we had the Strelka issue and then the issue with the Hippo family with totally obscure authorship. All designed for the purpose to "win" a case vs Vas without the necessity to start a REAL court case.

When this also failed, because Vas didnt whine but started his cluster movement, we have now after the return (I hope he will stay) of Fabien we re-open the debates from 5 years ago.
While Bob ALWAYS told us that he couldnt see anything reasonably good in court issues, the criticism from my side is neither accepted, that everything else in this situation would only be a campaigning, because the accusers seem to fear the negative outcome in court cases, so that it only would cost good money for 'nothing'.

We have now even a situation where arguments against some like Graham are used while the same argument isnt seen against Bob the other way round.

Therefore I want to beg all here to unite in the following solution. Since even Fabien doesnt want to harm Vas for what he might have done and Bob neither since he wouldnt judge something juridical as a good plan, we should take the whole conflict as an academic question without direct impact for our business and hobby.

Let's all unite with Vasik in the spirit that life is too short to be wasted by negative, evil and lethal ideas. This is how Bob seems to think since he's longer in CC that all others and he still likes to be in it.

Let's follow the role model of Bob and let's enjoy CC.

I have a little caveat however.

Like soldiers of war or inspectors of the police or even medical doctors and therapists, we shouldnt too much talk about the truly existing ugly sides of our field because that would only hurt our children, women and friends. I want to beg Bob in special, because although he's the wisest of all here, he still has the strong desire to publish his professional views without realizing that this way he only feeds the evil in all of us.May it only be the envy we feel towards a WorldChampion Vasik Rajlich. His success almost provokes us because we are weaker. So, the simplest idea is to put Vas into a box where he is stamped as unethical. But we all know that if we point with our finger towards someone else four fingers of that same hand are directly pointing towards ourself. Shouldnt that cause us to think about it?

If now for the last time in all these years we see that the best in our group dont want to sue Vasik, then it's time to welcome him back in our arms. We are based on a legal system and if we decide to not using it against someone it's evil if we are dreaming of lynching him instead.

Innocent until proven guilty ist our noblest guideline. And all the rest should be topic of our professional sphere but without spoiling the whole field with a constant poison of mistrust and hate.

Let's unite under our good tradition that says in chess


GENS UNA SUMUS
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

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Rolf
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Rolf » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:09 pm

AdminX wrote:
Graham: shortened by Rolf
Just one question Bob. What happens if this case is tried by the FSF (and I hope it is because we all want to see the matter resolved with some finality), and Vas is cleared?

Bob: shortened by Rolf
My opinion won't change however. We can argue forever about how much he copied, but there is no doubt he copied. Fabien could almost certainly win a civil trial, but what damages could he be awarded since his program was not commercial, his reputation has not been damaged. He has just been "ripped off"... So where this goes is most likely nowhere... Typically a FSF action stops at the point where the copying party agrees to provide the source... So there is always a way out...
Ted Summer: shortened by Rolf
Graham, A expert has spoken, but lets be honest here, you still will not accept it. It does not change your mind one way or the other. So what is the point of your question? In the above statement even if Vas were convicted, I don't think you would accept it, only if he were found not guilty would you agree.[/quote]

Ted, please tell us, why Bob were tolerably staying by his opinion while you utilize the concept of honesty against Graham, if he dared to act like Bob? How could this be an honest proceduring? And BTW Graham had made clear that he would accept any FSF outcome but of course he reserved to stay to his opinion, like Bob did it too.

Already 5 years ago, when the arguments were starting against Vas or against Rybka as some tried to use care, I supposed that we had a campaign whose sole intent was to make and win a case against Vas WITHOUT even having started a legal case of justice. And we have still the same situation.

In this forum we have members who are deeply convinced of an existing wrongdoing. I understood this already 5 years ago and propsed therefore to begin the juridical issue of a court case.

But - to my surprise this wasnt what happened. First we had the Strelka issue and then the issue with the Hippo family with totally obscure authorship. All designed for the purpose to "win" a case vs Vas without the necessity to start a REAL court case.

When this also failed, because Vas didnt whine but started his cluster movement, we have now after the return (I hope he will stay) of Fabien we re-open the debates from 5 years ago.
While Bob ALWAYS told us that he couldnt see anything reasonably good in court issues, the criticism from my side is neither accepted, that everything else in this situation would only be a campaigning, because the accusers seem to fear the negative outcome in court cases, so that it only would cost good money for 'nothing'.

We have now even a situation where arguments against some like Graham are used while the same argument isnt seen against Bob the other way round.

Therefore I want to beg all here to unite in the following solution. Since even Fabien doesnt want to harm Vas for what he might have done and Bob neither since he wouldnt judge something juridical as a good plan, we should take the whole conflict as an academic question without direct impact for our business and hobby.

Let's all unite with Vasik in the spirit that life is too short to be wasted by negative, evil and lethal ideas. This is how Bob seems to think since he's longer in CC that all others and he still likes to be in it.

Let's follow the role model of Bob and let's enjoy CC.

I have a little caveat however.

Like soldiers of war or inspectors of the police or even medical doctors and therapists, we shouldnt too much talk about the truly existing ugly sides of our field because that would only hurt our children, women and friends. I want to beg Bob in special, because although he's the wisest of all here, he still has the strong desire to publish his professional views without realizing that this way he only feeds the evil in all of us.May it only be the envy we feel towards a WorldChampion Vasik Rajlich. His success almost provokes us because we are weaker. So, the simplest idea is to put Vas into a box where he is stamped as unethical. But we all know that if we point with our finger towards someone else four fingers of that same hand are directly pointing towards ourself. Shouldnt that cause us to think about it?

If now for the last time in all these years we see that the best in our group dont want to sue Vasik, then it's time to welcome him back in our arms. We are based on a legal system and if we decide to not using it against someone it's evil if we are dreaming of lynching him instead.

Innocent until proven guilty ist our noblest guideline. And all the rest should be topic of our professional sphere but without spoiling the whole field with a constant poison of mistrust and hate.

Let's unite under our good tradition that says in chess


GENS UNA SUMUS
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

bob
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by bob » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:48 pm

bob wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
bob wrote:
Sven Schüle wrote:
bob wrote:
Xann wrote:
bob wrote:Just for the record, to eliminate this specific argument, when Zach, CT, I and others looked at the fruit/rybka1 question, we did _not_ involve Strelka. Strelka was the thing that exposed the issue, but we directly compared fruit to rybka, so the strelka issue could not be raised again...
What happened then?

Fabien.
We found _lots_ of similarities. Zach created a web page that went into great detail with the analysis. There are some obvious differences between Fruit and Rybka, but there are a _ton_ of similarities. Too many to be pure luck.
But these similarities are not a proof of code copying.

Sven
If you look at my previous comments, "similarity" is "identical code". The entire program was not copied. But large chunks were. That _is_ proof of code copying...

Since large chunks were copied, but not everything, I chose to not say "identical" to be accurate. But they are _very_ similar. Moreso when you factor out the bitboard changes...
Just one question Bob. What happens if this case is tried by the FSF (and I hope it is because we all want to see the matter resolved with some finality), and Vas is cleared?

Cheers,
Graham.
As in Criminal vs Civil matters, the standard of proof is different. Beyond a reasonable doubt or "preponderance of the evidence". We have the latter, to be sure. Whether a criminal proceeding would find him guilty is one thing, whether a civil action would find him liable is another.

My opinion won't change however. We can argue forever about how much he copied, but there is no doubt he copied. Fabien could almost certainly win a civil trial, but what damages could he be awarded since his program was not commercial, his reputation has not been damaged. He has just been "ripped off"... So where this goes is most likely nowhere... Typically a FSF action stops at the point where the copying party agrees to provide the source... So there is always a way out...
Since someone made a comment about "my mind being made up" here is my explanation.

I was an eyewitness to an event. Will I change my opinion about what I saw? Not unless you can somehow convince me that I did not see what I saw. How to do that? Unknown. Prove that I looked through a flaw in the space-time continuum and was looking at something that happened in an alternate universe. Prove that there was some sort of atmospheric distortion that caused me to see a distorted view of the event. Etc.

In this case, there is no doubt what I saw in the code inspections. It will take some sort of amazing explanation to make me change my mind on what I saw. Not that I like what I saw, as I do not like _any_ examples of copying. But I do know what I saw...

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:08 pm

Rolf wrote:
AdminX wrote:
Graham: shortened by Rolf
Just one question Bob. What happens if this case is tried by the FSF (and I hope it is because we all want to see the matter resolved with some finality), and Vas is cleared?

Bob: shortened by Rolf
My opinion won't change however. We can argue forever about how much he copied, but there is no doubt he copied. Fabien could almost certainly win a civil trial, but what damages could he be awarded since his program was not commercial, his reputation has not been damaged. He has just been "ripped off"... So where this goes is most likely nowhere... Typically a FSF action stops at the point where the copying party agrees to provide the source... So there is always a way out...
Ted Summer: shortened by Rolf
Graham, A expert has spoken, but lets be honest here, you still will not accept it. It does not change your mind one way or the other. So what is the point of your question? In the above statement even if Vas were convicted, I don't think you would accept it, only if he were found not guilty would you agree.
Ted, please tell us, why Bob were tolerably staying by his opinion while you utilize the concept of honesty against Graham, if he dared to act like Bob? How could this be an honest proceduring? And BTW Graham had made clear that he would accept any FSF outcome but of course he reserved to stay to his opinion, like Bob did it too.

Already 5 years ago, when the arguments were starting against Vas or against Rybka as some tried to use care, I supposed that we had a campaign whose sole intent was to make and win a case against Vas WITHOUT even having started a legal case of justice. And we have still the same situation.

In this forum we have members who are deeply convinced of an existing wrongdoing. I understood this already 5 years ago and propsed therefore to begin the juridical issue of a court case.

But - to my surprise this wasnt what happened. First we had the Strelka issue and then the issue with the Hippo family with totally obscure authorship. All designed for the purpose to "win" a case vs Vas without the necessity to start a REAL court case.

When this also failed, because Vas didnt whine but started his cluster movement, we have now after the return (I hope he will stay) of Fabien we re-open the debates from 5 years ago.
While Bob ALWAYS told us that he couldnt see anything reasonably good in court issues, the criticism from my side is neither accepted, that everything else in this situation would only be a campaigning, because the accusers seem to fear the negative outcome in court cases, so that it only would cost good money for 'nothing'.

We have now even a situation where arguments against some like Graham are used while the same argument isnt seen against Bob the other way round.

Therefore I want to beg all here to unite in the following solution. Since even Fabien doesnt want to harm Vas for what he might have done and Bob neither since he wouldnt judge something juridical as a good plan, we should take the whole conflict as an academic question without direct impact for our business and hobby.

Let's all unite with Vasik in the spirit that life is too short to be wasted by negative, evil and lethal ideas. This is how Bob seems to think since he's longer in CC that all others and he still likes to be in it.

Let's follow the role model of Bob and let's enjoy CC.

I have a little caveat however.

Like soldiers of war or inspectors of the police or even medical doctors and therapists, we shouldnt too much talk about the truly existing ugly sides of our field because that would only hurt our children, women and friends. I want to beg Bob in special, because although he's the wisest of all here, he still has the strong desire to publish his professional views without realizing that this way he only feeds the evil in all of us.May it only be the envy we feel towards a WorldChampion Vasik Rajlich. His success almost provokes us because we are weaker. So, the simplest idea is to put Vas into a box where he is stamped as unethical. But we all know that if we point with our finger towards someone else four fingers of that same hand are directly pointing towards ourself. Shouldnt that cause us to think about it?

If now for the last time in all these years we see that the best in our group dont want to sue Vasik, then it's time to welcome him back in our arms. We are based on a legal system and if we decide to not using it against someone it's evil if we are dreaming of lynching him instead.

Innocent until proven guilty ist our noblest guideline. And all the rest should be topic of our professional sphere but without spoiling the whole field with a constant poison of mistrust and hate.

Let's unite under our good tradition that says in chess


GENS UNA SUMUS[/quote]

Whoo-hoo....Rolf is in da house....
I thought that he passed away or something :lol:
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

Christopher Conkie
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Christopher Conkie » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:41 pm

Rolf length posts as well...... I wasn't gonna crack out the nacho's but hey.....it's the weekend. And if licking is the order of the day. I'd prefer to lick a nacho. You know what's so funny about this thread? Talk.....all talk......no action...... no resolution.....just a lot of woffle.....

All we need is Richard Stickles to enter the fray and then the mess is complete......

Anyone for salsa?

:)

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:56 pm

Christopher Conkie wrote:Rolf length posts as well...... I wasn't gonna crack out the nacho's but hey.....it's the weekend. And if licking is the order of the day. I'd prefer to lick a nacho. You know what's so funny about this thread? Talk.....all talk......no action...... no resolution.....just a lot of woffle.....

All we need is Richard Stickles to enter the fray and then the mess is complete......

Anyone for salsa?

:)
I'm in :D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Zach Wegner
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Zach Wegner » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:25 pm

Graham Banks wrote:
AdminX wrote:A expert has spoken, but lets be honest here, you still will not accept it. It does not change your mind one way or the other. So what is the point of your question? In the above statement even if Vas were convicted, I don't think you would accept it, only if he were found not guilty would you agree.
Not true. The whole reason I'd like to see it decided through the FSF is to get finality.
Unlike Bob, I would accept whatever decision they made and then move on.
This is pretty silly. Your implication is that Bob et al don't really know for certain what happened, and if the case is taken to court and Vas is cleared, then that means there was no ethical wrongdoing and all the accusations were just incorrect. I myself know what happened, or at least enough to form my own opinion about Vas' ethics (and it isn't pretty). As Bob says, there isn't really anything someone could say that could change my mind about this, I have seen the evidence with my own eyes. All the debating nonsense here is basically arguing whether something unethical happened, based on people's opinions--not many of which are likely to change.

The purpose of going through the FSF is to pursue the _legal_ route. I'm not 100% certain whether a law has been broken or not (maybe 98%). In addition there are some legal technicalities that could decide the outcome of the case. If Vas were to be cleared of legal wrongdoing, it would not bring me any closure personally. All it would do would be to give certain people a sense of smug satisfaction and others a sense of the inadequacy of the legal system.

Richard Allbert
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Richard Allbert » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:31 pm

:D

Nachos comment bought a smile

Christopher Conkie
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Christopher Conkie » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:35 pm

Zach Wegner wrote:If Vas were to be cleared of legal wrongdoing, it would not bring me any closure personally. All it would do would be to give certain people a sense of smug satisfaction and others a sense of the inadequacy of the legal system.
I don't quite get this statement Zach. Could you expand please? Does this mean that even if it were independently verified as legal, you would then question that independent authority, if you did not get the result you personally seem to want?

I thought you wanted a resolution.....no?

What resolution is there if you cannot abide by that decision?

Chan Rasjid
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Chan Rasjid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Christopher Conkie wrote:
Zach Wegner wrote:If Vas were to be cleared of legal wrongdoing, it would not bring me any closure personally. All it would do would be to give certain people a sense of smug satisfaction and others a sense of the inadequacy of the legal system.
I don't quite get this statement Zach. Could you expand please? Does this mean that even if it were independently verified as legal, you would then question that independent authority, if you did not get the result you personally seem to want?

I thought you wanted a resolution.....no?

What resolution is there if you cannot abide by that decision?
What Zach means is that courts of law cannot declare 'truth' but only gives a decision (very expert opinion) if something has broken or have not broken any law.

Rasjid.
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