Fabien's open letter to the community

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Sven
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Sven » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:13 pm

diep wrote:It took until 2007 the release of the strelka code, for me to realize, that the whole project was one giant NSA project about automatic tuning.

At least $100 milllion must have been put into it.

As for the software engineering, they just grabbed the above remarks i made. It's possibe just 1 programmer carried out the project and then they found someone from the see ya dudes with a chess title to walk around abroad.

[...]

Rybka is a classical form of NSA software engineering: do the minimum to get strong, and a maximum of usage of hardware at an unknown NSA location somewhere in the USA.
Your words are suggesting that you know exactly what happened. But I wonder whether you are presenting facts or a theory.

Would you mind telling more about your source of information?

Sven

diep
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by diep » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:39 pm

Sven Schüle wrote:
diep wrote:It took until 2007 the release of the strelka code, for me to realize, that the whole project was one giant NSA project about automatic tuning.

At least $100 milllion must have been put into it.

As for the software engineering, they just grabbed the above remarks i made. It's possibe just 1 programmer carried out the project and then they found someone from the see ya dudes with a chess title to walk around abroad.

[...]

Rybka is a classical form of NSA software engineering: do the minimum to get strong, and a maximum of usage of hardware at an unknown NSA location somewhere in the USA.
Your words are suggesting that you know exactly what happened. But I wonder whether you are presenting facts or a theory.

Would you mind telling more about your source of information?

Sven
I'm only posting information that was said by a bunch of programmers and i'm not even presenting most facts. Some of those programmers have been shut up by their governments now and no longer say a word on this, whereas they showed up with all kinds of information and evidence.

If you scroll back past few years in CCC, sometimes you will see also programmers post on this, yet in not such clear wordings.

It all obviously means that majority of the, especially European programmers, had zero clues on what was happening initially.

Please realize many programmers can read assembler very well.

What changed all that was the Russians.

here is my interpretation of what happened. Some Russian guys see Rybka, reverse engineer it with a tool (in fact you can commercially buy them if you have enough cash). They check out the code and are amazed by what they see.

What they see is something completely automatic tuned and to their calculations only top secret software can do this. It is of course very weird to see top secret softwares output in a public, in fact software that either is open source, freely available, or buyable on the internet.

So they throw it on the net under the name 'strelka'.

Realize this happens years after the funding happened.

When it is on the net, suddenly dozens of chessprogrammers, most of which didn't do effort to look too much into rybka yet, they can easily read this code as well.

When this happens a lot of chessprogrammers go start talk to me and what i presented above is just a very small bit of information. There is even more detailed opinions.

When all this occurs in 2007, China reports itself.

One by one then the authors get shut up by government in the years 2007-2008+.

Usually this happens when one of them gets hired to do a job.

Let me quote 1 programmer who said it loud and clear at an early stage, he later also got shut up.

"No i don't make a focking penny with computerchess directly, it's thrown away effort, but i have a chessprogram because of all the other sort of jobs i get hired for BECAUSE i have that strong chessprogram, the sneaky earnings outweigh any other income i have, so you bet i'll do effort to have a chessprogram".

Is that a very clear statement?

He was paid by a 'company' in Tel Aviv.

There is more recent statements there. It is always the same pattern. They see something, talk this around in a very careful manner, then suddenly they make cash with it and get shut up.

I'm not going to quote names, as then a cover up will occur, by that person himself, forced by his own government, provided that government is within NATO.

I'll give you another statement of someone. Again from a different nation, also within NATO.

"It is one big global conspiracy what happens right now in computerchess, it is all related to each other".

Some months later suddenly the same person gets shut up and has sincethen not said a word on this anymore and even claims that: "there is nothing wrong, nothing happened".

Here another quote from another person when he spoke to me, in this case also a programmer of a chess engine who is around already for a long time in computerchess, what he said about it was in a mystical way.

"Heh, you are very clever... ...they wanted to look like you"

He said this in another few wordings in later chats. In what i wrote i wrote down about mediocre guys, are also from this author, but i also tend to believe it plays a big role, which is why i wrote it down.

The easiest statements you get is always from people with a DIFFERENT nationality than you, living somewhere far away. I hope you realize that.

It's not a good idea to fish at university type guys, as they know nothing about all this. In terms of parameter tuning they live somewhere in the previous century, just pick a date there. 70s?

About the conspiracies happening, i think all together it's more than a couple of dozens of guys doing statements. You'll realize that historically seen i spoke with quite some guys.

Vincent

Christopher Conkie
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Christopher Conkie » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:58 pm

I bought some Pringles today. Better not eat too many. I might get czubby......

:)

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Graham Banks
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Graham Banks » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:01 am

Christopher Conkie wrote:I bought some Pringles today. Better not eat too many. I might get czubby......

:)
We can't have that now. You might get carted off! May Caesar protect you! :lol:
Last edited by Graham Banks on Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

diep
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by diep » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:05 am

Sven Schüle wrote:
diep wrote:It took until 2007 the release of the strelka code, for me to realize, that the whole project was one giant NSA project about automatic tuning.

At least $100 milllion must have been put into it.

As for the software engineering, they just grabbed the above remarks i made. It's possibe just 1 programmer carried out the project and then they found someone from the see ya dudes with a chess title to walk around abroad.

[...]

Rybka is a classical form of NSA software engineering: do the minimum to get strong, and a maximum of usage of hardware at an unknown NSA location somewhere in the USA.
Your words are suggesting that you know exactly what happened. But I wonder whether you are presenting facts or a theory.

Would you mind telling more about your source of information?

Sven
Now all quotes from end december 2005.

I'll give you another quote from Anthony Cozzie when i asked how it is possible that Rybka 1.0 looked a lot like how code looks like he programs.

"Maybe Vasik's brother stole my source code, as he's working at the same department like me".

Anthony couldn't read assembler code, yet i saw something very weird in Rybka 1.0 which i didn't understand. It seemed to me the evaluation function. I asked Anthony what it was.

Within 10 seconds Anthony responds: "oh that's a bug, pawn attacks get generated from h2 to a3."

If i may remind you Anthony ran world champs 2006 at a NCSA supercomputer.

Here is another quote from Anthony: "I emailed the secretary, on the returning email after the weekend, she gave me directly 100k cpunode hours system time to test a bit getting Zappa to work at the supercomputer".

Deductions you can do yourself now.

In Netherlands to get 80k cpunode hours for world champs 2003, i had to wait a full year, write tons of paper and hundreds of emails, and i was not allowed to test in fact. And Diep ran at a completely outdated supercomputer which had 500Mhz R14000 MIPS 'washing machine chip" processors at a time that everyone at world champs showed up with quad xeon MP 2.8Ghz. Chrilly with 8 x fpga.

The world champs 2003, the first day i had no internet, despite all sort of promises from the organisation. That definitely hurt me back then.

The first game i played there also was the first test of Diep at 512 processors.

To quote Stefan MK: "I know Diep and how slow it is, i'm amazed you get that much nps and that you don't crash".

I considered it a big compliment, but also felt like worlds biggest amateur there, to show up untested at a supercomputer.

Fritz escaped narrowly against Diep. That afternoon i managed to fix diep (after round 7). Then it worked a lot better last few rounds and played much better.

After the debacle, from my viewpoint that world champs, as i consider Diep at the supercomputer a failure from tournament viewpoint (see how little points it scored), Jaap van den Herik told me to write a managementreport when i complained about a few things such as no testing and desinformation from SGI regarding technical specifics of the machine, and the hard fact that my government had bought at the time a supercomputer which never had been tested at all. Also i could not explain a factor 12 difference in latency from the latency numbers i got from SGI and even single cpu, when diep did do without locking anything, just running at 1 cpu @ 400MB hashtable out of the 512 processors, it was 20% slower than when it ran at 1 cpu of the other partitions. I could not explain that 20%, except that they had bought something without testing. Maybe the processors in that partition didn't have the L2 run at full processor speed and the small partitions did?

About that managementreport. I didn't write it. Instead of writing another report ready to get dusted, i sought publicity and publicly published something. So basically publicly later on i got served off, but something within that organisation definitely changed. In 2007 and 2008 when i got a tour at the supercomputers (2 were installed in 2007 first a power5 and in 2007 it was replaced by the power8 that got ordered), i got nearly a private tour explaining how they had tested it and so on. Basically every single point of criticism mine they had implemented.

Of course i knew nothing from all that.

Please note i did not get paid a penny all those years for anything related to supercomputers and even today i'm unpaid there.

So all these guys are paid. Also i remember how HGM, a frequent poster here, told me how he wrote report after report on which programs to not allow and which to allow on the supercomputer, and how the commissions never read any of his report and just ignored it all.

Yet he got paid by yet another organisation to write those reports.

That's the difference with me, and to be honest i don't like to get not paid.

Anyway, you see how the real chessprogrammers struggle each time to get good testhardware, or any testing at all, and how the above guys with just 1 email get everything.

Which proves all my points and also this says more than enough about rybka & co.

Vincent
Last edited by diep on Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Christopher Conkie
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Christopher Conkie » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:08 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:I bought some Pringles today. Better not eat too many. I might get czubby......

:)
We can't have that now! You might get carted off! :lol:
To London? To see the Queen? :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Whitt ... nd_His_Cat

lol

Chrisp......

F. Bluemers
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by F. Bluemers » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:35 am

Christopher Conkie wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:I bought some Pringles today. Better not eat too many. I might get czubby......

:)
We can't have that now! You might get carted off! :lol:
To London? To see the Queen? :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Whitt ... nd_His_Cat

lol

Chrisp......
Nonsense,Just get that fabulous Twitty Twister they show on Tell Sell every day and you never get czubbed.
Another post that doesn't help Fabien a ...,but after 63 pages of ... why not me too :lol:

Christopher Conkie
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Christopher Conkie » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:39 am

F. Bluemers wrote: Another post that doesn't help Fabien a ...,but after 63 pages of ... why not me too :lol:
Exactly......if you cant beat the crap.....join in but tread carefully.

My thoughts entirely.

How are you btw Fonzy?

:)

F. Bluemers
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by F. Bluemers » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:43 am

Christopher Conkie wrote:
F. Bluemers wrote: Another post that doesn't help Fabien a ...,but after 63 pages of ... why not me too :lol:
Exactly......if you cant beat the crap.....join in but tread carefully.

My thoughts entirely.

How are you btw Fonzy?

:)
I'm fine but unfortunatly I picked up Dirt again,just could not resist...
:D

Christopher Conkie
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Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:34 pm
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Re: Fabien's open letter to the community

Post by Christopher Conkie » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:01 am

F. Bluemers wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:
F. Bluemers wrote: Another post that doesn't help Fabien a ...,but after 63 pages of ... why not me too :lol:
Exactly......if you cant beat the crap.....join in but tread carefully.

My thoughts entirely.

How are you btw Fonzy?

:)
I'm fine but unfortunatly I picked up Dirt again,just could not resist...
:D
Nothing wrong with getting ones hands dirty once in a while......

:)

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