WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

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wgarvin
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by wgarvin » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:58 am

kranium wrote: how do you explain the presence of winmm.lib in Houdinin 1.0, used in the exact same manner as Robbolito 0.09 and in the exact same places?
http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php ... 915#p14915
I think you should try to not read too much into the winmm stuff, there are only a couple of reasonable ways to do sub-second timing of things on Windows, and the timeGetTime() method is one of them. When used with timeBeginPeriod(), it can give 1ms accuracy on most systems. Its CPU-interrupt-based, so it doesn't get confused by CPU speed-stepping optimizations like QueryPerformanceCounter methods can. Its a bog-standard timer technique that dates back at least to Windows 95, that most win32 programmers are probably familiar with, and that has probably been used in thousands of non-multimedia Windows applications that just needed a reasonably accurate timer.

There does seem to be ample evidence though that Houdini 1.0 and 1.5a were direct clones of Robbolito. If timeGetTime() etc. Are used in the same way, its consistent with that explanation. Its refreshing to see people steal their timing routines from an engine other than Fruit or Crafty. ;)

wgarvin
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by wgarvin » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:17 am

Houdini wrote:3) "and has violated the GPL. "
No, Houdini does not violate any software license, and does not contain any GPL-licensed code. The only third-party code included in Houdini is the Gaviota and Nalimova EGTB code.
Unless you are secretly the sole author of Robbolito, I don't see how that bit in bold could possibly be true.

And isn't Robbolito source only available under the GPL license?

[edit: Another question, is the Nalimov code the same code found in Crafty, or some other implementation? Because that code needs a license/permission direct from Eugene Nalimov... Did you secure that permission for Houdini?]

Lion
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Lion » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:31 am

Houdini is not just a simple copy of Rybka 4.1 since it is over 50 ELO stronger !

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Don
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Don » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:57 pm

Peter Skinner wrote:Hiarcs and Shredder needed to win their final games to overtake Junior to become the WCCC 2011 Champion, but both only managed to secure a half point.

Junior faced Hiarcs in the final round and Shredder's final dance partner was Jonny. Both games ended in the same fashion, a draw.

Therefore, Amir Ban and Shay Bushinsky are the 2011 World Computer Chess Champions.

Congratulations to the Junior team on a very well played event and I look forward to the upcoming versions to be released before Christmas.

Peter
Congratulation Amir for a fine program!

Don

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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by bob » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:07 pm

Robert Flesher wrote:
bob wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote:
bob wrote:
kranium wrote:
fern wrote:No doubt Junior is a great engine, I bought the last one time ago and I happy with it, but surely I would like it in a tourn against the engines that all know are the strongest, cloned or not.
I have not organized a tourn, but maybe someone did...or will. I would like to know about THOSE results.

Fern
+1
Agreed..

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available...
this year = Houdini

and towards that goal, the tournament should be 'open' format, not a hand-picked selection of 'approved' programs...
apparently the organizers can 'divine' which programs are 'clean' and which are not?

(like they knew the last 5 years w/ Rybka?)

the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty...
all due to the CCC establishment erroneously, unfairly, and without any evidence, labeling and blacklisting Ippolit engines as 'the clones'...

what a farce this has become.

referring to what M. Hull posted:
the ippolit source code is now known 'clean', thus competing against it is not akin to competing against a 'doped' athlete...they analogy is ridiculous.
The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available... this year = Houdini

That's a pure crock. What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that? That's basically Houdart's modus operandi with Houdini, just replace Rybka 4.1 with Robolito...


Sounds like a wonderful tournament you would want... Nothing but clones.

Heya Bob, although I agree with you in principle 100%, in another way I must disagree. Please let me explain. One problem that does occur with the excluding of Rybka and it's children is the relative quality of the "CHESS" being played. OF course all the engines that did play are amazingly strong and played great chess, but I did say that the quality is relative. Most would agree that had Rybka or Houdini played the outcome would have been different, but more interesting to chess would the method in which those engines would have won. It is that ability to climb to the next level of chess that interests some of us.

One can observe that 2800 elo play looks good until a 2900 player comes along. It seems to me some people on this forum have become so caught up on the "who cloned who?" bullshit they have forgotten the "CHESS" aspect. There are still some people who enjoy these tournaments for the actual chess being played. Yes, cloning is wrong! and unacceptable, but why does Rybka and it's ever evolving family have to be so much stronger than the rest, it begs the question. I think everyone know what that is. :wink:
When you play someone in a tennis match, do you care about the quality of the game, or do you want to win using your skills and nothing else? For me, this has always been about the "competition". Me competing with others that have come up through the chess development process just as I did. Competing against copies of copies is not very attractive to me as a programmer. Might be what you as a spectator wants, of course, but spectating is a different activity than competing...
:wink: I think you may have missed my point. I am looking at this from a chess player's point of view. Good chess is about quality, and the fact remains regardless of origins, Rybka and it's offspring still walk all over any that played in the recent tournament. Likewise, I am sure when Kasparov retired, there was a huge sigh of relief from the other top players, however, chess tournaments just don't seem the same with him at the top. Sure there are other amazingly talented players, but the chess that Kasparov played in his prime was on another level. This was my point! Regarding clones, derivatives, etc, etc, I can only agree with your point of view. Capiche?
The tournaments have NOTHING to do with "chess players". They have everything to do with "chess program authors". As I said, "different audiences".

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Don
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Don » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:15 pm

fern wrote:No doubt Junior is a great engine, I bought the last one time ago and I happy with it, but surely I would like it in a tourn against the engines that all know are the strongest, cloned or not.
It would be fun to see a tournament of all the greats playing together such as:

1. Ippolitto
2. Robbolito
3. Firebird
4. Igorrit
5. Ivanhoe
6. Saros
7. Houdolito

What fun it would be to see such a wide diversity of original engines.

I could put some development versions of Komodo in there too. We have over 3000 developmental versions of Komodo since October of last year, we could throw in the last 30 or 40 of them to make the tournament really BIG and exciting! And I assure you that all 40 versions are different from each other so we would be treated to a smorgasbord of truly diverse playing engines!

I have not organized a tourn, but maybe someone did...or will. I would like to know about THOSE results.

Fern

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AdminX
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by AdminX » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:29 pm

Don wrote:
fern wrote:No doubt Junior is a great engine, I bought the last one time ago and I happy with it, but surely I would like it in a tourn against the engines that all know are the strongest, cloned or not.
It would be fun to see a tournament of all the greats playing together such as:

1. Ippolitto
2. Robbolito
3. Firebird
4. Igorrit
5. Ivanhoe
6. Saros
7. Houdolito

What fun it would be to see such a wide diversity of original engines.

I could put some development versions of Komodo in there too. We have over 3000 developmental versions of Komodo since October of last year, we could throw in the last 30 or 40 of them to make the tournament really BIG and exciting! And I assure you that all 40 versions are different from each other so we would be treated to a smorgasbord of truly diverse playing engines!

I have not organized a tourn, but maybe someone did...or will. I would like to know about THOSE results.

Fern
ROTFLMAO!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Terry McCracken
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Terry McCracken » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:33 pm

Lion wrote:Houdini is not just a simple copy of Rybka 4.1 since it is over 50 ELO stronger !
Wow..he modified it. :lol:
Terry McCracken

Lion
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Lion » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:44 pm

Terry McCracken wrote:
Lion wrote:Houdini is not just a simple copy of Rybka 4.1 since it is over 50 ELO stronger !
Wow..he modified it. :lol:
Try to gain 50 ELO out of Rybka 4.1 and then we discuss.

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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by tomgdrums » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:44 pm

bob wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote:
bob wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote:
bob wrote:
kranium wrote:
fern wrote:No doubt Junior is a great engine, I bought the last one time ago and I happy with it, but surely I would like it in a tourn against the engines that all know are the strongest, cloned or not.
I have not organized a tourn, but maybe someone did...or will. I would like to know about THOSE results.

Fern
+1
Agreed..

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available...
this year = Houdini

and towards that goal, the tournament should be 'open' format, not a hand-picked selection of 'approved' programs...
apparently the organizers can 'divine' which programs are 'clean' and which are not?

(like they knew the last 5 years w/ Rybka?)

the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty...
all due to the CCC establishment erroneously, unfairly, and without any evidence, labeling and blacklisting Ippolit engines as 'the clones'...

what a farce this has become.

referring to what M. Hull posted:
the ippolit source code is now known 'clean', thus competing against it is not akin to competing against a 'doped' athlete...they analogy is ridiculous.
The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available... this year = Houdini

That's a pure crock. What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that? That's basically Houdart's modus operandi with Houdini, just replace Rybka 4.1 with Robolito...


Sounds like a wonderful tournament you would want... Nothing but clones.

Heya Bob, although I agree with you in principle 100%, in another way I must disagree. Please let me explain. One problem that does occur with the excluding of Rybka and it's children is the relative quality of the "CHESS" being played. OF course all the engines that did play are amazingly strong and played great chess, but I did say that the quality is relative. Most would agree that had Rybka or Houdini played the outcome would have been different, but more interesting to chess would the method in which those engines would have won. It is that ability to climb to the next level of chess that interests some of us.

One can observe that 2800 elo play looks good until a 2900 player comes along. It seems to me some people on this forum have become so caught up on the "who cloned who?" bullshit they have forgotten the "CHESS" aspect. There are still some people who enjoy these tournaments for the actual chess being played. Yes, cloning is wrong! and unacceptable, but why does Rybka and it's ever evolving family have to be so much stronger than the rest, it begs the question. I think everyone know what that is. :wink:
When you play someone in a tennis match, do you care about the quality of the game, or do you want to win using your skills and nothing else? For me, this has always been about the "competition". Me competing with others that have come up through the chess development process just as I did. Competing against copies of copies is not very attractive to me as a programmer. Might be what you as a spectator wants, of course, but spectating is a different activity than competing...
:wink: I think you may have missed my point. I am looking at this from a chess player's point of view. Good chess is about quality, and the fact remains regardless of origins, Rybka and it's offspring still walk all over any that played in the recent tournament. Likewise, I am sure when Kasparov retired, there was a huge sigh of relief from the other top players, however, chess tournaments just don't seem the same with him at the top. Sure there are other amazingly talented players, but the chess that Kasparov played in his prime was on another level. This was my point! Regarding clones, derivatives, etc, etc, I can only agree with your point of view. Capiche?
The tournaments have NOTHING to do with "chess players". They have everything to do with "chess program authors". As I said, "different audiences".
IF that is true then they should not have a website, should not send out press releases when they ban an engine, nor should anyone ever use it as advertising for the commercial engine or as publicity for their free engine.

To say the tournaments have "nothing to do with chess players...and everything to do with the program authors", is like saying that art has nothing to do with the receivers (listeners, readers etc. etc.) and has everything to do with the artists.

And it actually goes both ways, it has everything to with the receivers and the artists.

And for you to blatantly insult those who enjoy following the tournaments shows a pomposity and pretense that is rather staggering and to be quite honest, disappointing!

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