WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

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bob
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by bob » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:11 pm

kranium wrote:
Don wrote: In fact I believe that one of either Rybka, Fruit or Houdini should be allowed to compete to represent the "Fruit" name.
Don-
Please stop this incessant (2 years now?) propaganda and devious campaign to discredit Ippolit...
where is the evidence that Houdini, or any of the Ippolit engines contain Fruit?
there isn't any!

Until such is presented, your allegations are completely untrue, disingenuous, and hurtful...

If you don't have it, then what you are doing is as bad (or worse, IMO) than those you refer to as 'the cloners'...
and your behavior is simply reprehensible.
Does not matter. ippolit was the first. Anything based on that is an illegal entry. Whether robo contains part of ip* or not I do not know. But anything based on robo* is ALSO illegal as that would be a copy. That includes fire/houdini/whatever else there is in this "forkless family tree"

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kranium
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by kranium » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:11 pm

bob wrote:
Milos wrote:
Don wrote:Here is more irony. In this scenario I could take Houdini, reverse engineer it, and have the same chances as Houdini to win the tournament without a single original line of code. Since I reverse engineered it the source would superficially look different and with the highly relaxed rules you propose nobody could question it. And I could always use the noble statement that "I am standing on the shoulders of giants" if someone noticed the functional similarities.
Stop the BS. For you and 90% or other "original" authors, taking a 3000 elo program reverse engineering it and making a new program (without any change) that is working is an impossible task. Making a RE program that is 3000 elo strong is even more impossible.
Stop talking about things that you don't have a clue about.
Reverse engineering and making a new program that is equally strong or stronger is much harder than writing an original 3000 elo program.
If you thinks it's so easy just try it.
I'm really sick of you spreading that nonsense over and over again.
I have no idea what your asm skills are, but if you think it would be harder to RE a 3000 Elo program than to write one from scratch, you are "way out there in never-never-land". There's an order of magnitude difference between the two efforts, at the very LEAST. With RE being much easier.
Bob-

Neither you, nor Zach, nor Milos have done both...
has anybody?

I suggest none of you can definitively declare the truth in this matter...
not sure why some feel compelled to try, perhaps better to simply move on.

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kranium
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by kranium » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:14 pm

bob wrote:
kranium wrote:
Don wrote: In fact I believe that one of either Rybka, Fruit or Houdini should be allowed to compete to represent the "Fruit" name.
Don-
Please stop this incessant (2 years now?) propaganda and devious campaign to discredit Ippolit...
where is the evidence that Houdini, or any of the Ippolit engines contain Fruit?
there isn't any!

Until such is presented, your allegations are completely untrue, disingenuous, and hurtful...

If you don't have it, then what you are doing is as bad (or worse, IMO) than those you refer to as 'the cloners'...
and your behavior is simply reprehensible.
Does not matter. ippolit was the first. Anything based on that is an illegal entry. Whether robo contains part of ip* or not I do not know. But anything based on robo* is ALSO illegal as that would be a copy. That includes fire/houdini/whatever else there is in this "forkless family tree"
what evidence do you possess that ippolit is illegal (or even wrong in any way)?
if you have it, please be forthright and share it with us,
if it is credible and substantial, i will be the 1st to admit it...
and will immediately discontinue my distribution/support/defence of Ippolit...

i don't understand:
"Does not matter. ippolit was the first. Anything based on that is an illegal entry."

what on earth does that mean, other than a baseless 'proclamation'?
Last edited by kranium on Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:24 pm, edited 6 times in total.

bob
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by bob » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:15 pm

Rein Halbersma wrote:
bob wrote: Doping is NOT "harmful to your health". Generally means an excess of red blood cells, which would occur naturally if you trained at high altitude for an extended period of time. If you mean HGH and/or steroids, they are certainly bad, but I have not seen those called "doping" in the past...
In the future, you might want to do some research before making false statements such as that (blood) doping is simply accelerating the natural effects of high altitude training, whereas in fact it can be extremely dangerous...

http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/epo.html

Furthermore, both HGH and steroids are commonly accepted examples of doping

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_per ... s_in_sport
Anything CAN be dangerous, even an evening walk. But taking your own blood, removing the plasma, collecting and saving the red blood cells, and then re-introducing them into your bloodstream prior to competition is not a dangerous procedure. One only needs to use care, not a basement.

If all drug usage is now lumped into "doping" so be it. But the original example was red blood cells and was a pretty clever idea saving months of training at high altitude to produce exactly the same result... greater levels of oxygen transported by the circulatory system.

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Rebel
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Rebel » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:22 pm

bob wrote:
Rebel wrote:
Don wrote:According to Ed Shroeder, I would be a hypocrite if I implemented MP on Komodo because it's not my original idea, it would be plagiarism.
Correction, according to the ICGA.
There is absolutely no such opinion within the ICGA. Your statement is false, and you KNOW it is false. The ICGA journal proves that clearly.
The International Computer Games Association (ICGA) has been conducting an investigation into allegations that, in the chess program Rybka, the programmer Vasik Rajlich plagiarized two other programs: Crafty and Fruit.

http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/rybka ... pionships/

Plagiarism includes ideas.

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Rebel
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Rebel » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:42 pm

Don wrote: You said that "everyone is doing it" meaning that we all use ideas from other programs and then you proposed a method so that nobody would have to feel like a hypocrite for doing this. If I got this wrong, please correct me.
The International Computer Games Association (ICGA) has been conducting an investigation into allegations that, in the chess program Rybka, the programmer Vasik Rajlich plagiarized two other programs: Crafty and Fruit.

Following the interpretation of rule #2 due to the Rybka-ICGA fiasco we are all plagiarists because we take ideas.

Said this 3 times now.

You want to be called a plagiarists by the ICGA? Fine. Go on derailing the subject pretending you did not get my point. As such you are insulting your own intelligence and of your readers.

I don't like to be labelled as a plagiarist, you?

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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Terry McCracken » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:48 pm

Rebel wrote:
bob wrote:
Rebel wrote:
Don wrote:According to Ed Shroeder, I would be a hypocrite if I implemented MP on Komodo because it's not my original idea, it would be plagiarism.
Correction, according to the ICGA.
There is absolutely no such opinion within the ICGA. Your statement is false, and you KNOW it is false. The ICGA journal proves that clearly.
The International Computer Games Association (ICGA) has been conducting an investigation into allegations that, in the chess program Rybka, the programmer Vasik Rajlich plagiarized two other programs: Crafty and Fruit.

http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/rybka ... pionships/

Plagiarism includes ideas.
So you're a plagiarist by your own definition and that makes everyone else a plagiarist as well so Vas et al are vindicated and it may as well be a free for all.

How convenient.
Terry McCracken

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Rebel
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Rebel » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:51 pm

bob wrote: Ed's off the deep end for reasons unknown...
:lol:

You and Don could be twins.

As if you did not understand the topic is about the definition of plagiarism.

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Rebel
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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Rebel » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:52 pm

bob wrote: What does this have to do with morality? Don hasn't copied any source code. He's followed the ICGA rules...
Telling........

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Re: WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

Post by Rebel » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:56 pm

bob wrote: Why don't you try explaining what you mean? Not everyone can follow your extremely convoluted reasoning here. I will repeat, since Don's response followed Ed's post, what does technical ability have to do with morality in this context (the icga investigation, finding Vas guilty, while many are using ideas from ip* in their programs)???
Start here: http://www.top-5000.nl/david.htm

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