Philidor IV

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Henk
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Re: Philidor IV

Post by Henk » Mon May 29, 2017 8:38 am

Actually there were at least ten videos from Shirov about Philidor defense on Youtube. But I can't find them anymore. Probably he deleted them.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Philidor IV

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Mon May 29, 2017 12:13 pm

Henk wrote:Actually there were at least ten videos from Shirov about Philidor defense on Youtube. But I can't find them anymore. Probably he deleted them.
or someone, who hates Shirov, deleted them, or someone, who was appalled by the gambit...

only playable gambit for white is the Evans gambit.
no playable gambits for black.

Henk
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Re: Philidor IV

Post by Henk » Wed May 31, 2017 7:27 pm


Ras
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Re: Philidor IV

Post by Ras » Wed May 31, 2017 9:12 pm

Shredder suggests 12. ... Qa5 instead of Qc7, with half a pawn advantage for Black. That loses control over d6, which was why Qc7 was suggested, but for the moment, White cannot get that square anyway.

Even 12. ... Qc7 is not as bad as the video suggests, it's about even. After 13. 0-0-0, Black must not play ... a5, that brings White into clear advantage, and after 14. a4, ... b4 is completely losing.

But Black has several moves with minor advantage here: 13. ... g6, g5 or even Bb7.

The main problem with declining the gambit with h6 instead of Nxg4 is that Black still has no options in the centre and still cannot castle kingside because the pawn shelter gets weak after White plays g5. Plus that White can open up the centre with dxe5 at any time. Which is what White also does if Black accepts the gambit, but at least, Black can hold on and has the pawn as endgame insurance.

Ras
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Re: Philidor IV

Post by Ras » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:36 am

On the other hand, I have been digging deeply through the variations of the accepted gambit, and with optimum play by both sides, it looks pretty equal. The issue is just that the paths are very narrow for both sides, which makes the opening sharp.

Actually, I would not recommend this opening for a human versus a strong engine. But with human vs. human, White may play this if White is either a superior player or better prepared. The only drawback is that in human games, Black is unlikely to go for Philidor these days.

It's also a good option for strong players against dedicated units (just like e.g. the Blackmar-Diemer-Gambit) as these will probably not have this opening in the book - with at least one exception, of course. 8-)

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AdminX
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Re: Philidor IV

Post by AdminX » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:40 pm

Henk wrote:What should black play against this gambit ? Don't tell me he has to exchange it's queen against a rook, bishop and a pawn.

[d] r1bqkb1r/pppn1ppp/3p1n2/4p3/3PP1P1/2N2N2/PPP2P1P/R1BQKB1R b KQkq g3 0 5
That depends on what type of player you are. Strategic, Tactical, or Positional. As for me, I like the initiative and active positions so I might try d5 here based of the principal that an attack on the wing is countered by an attack in the center. Mind you I am not adverse to capturing with Nxg4, it just depends on the mood I am in.

PS: I do play the Black Lion but rarely does white play g4 in my games with black, because I normally get in g5 first and it is supported by my own pawn on h6.
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Henk
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Re: Philidor IV

Post by Henk » Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:14 pm

I think I capture on d4. That makes the position less complicated. Spares me studying violent gambits and dubious king attacks.

[d] rnbqkbnr/ppp2ppp/3p4/4p3/3PP3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq d3 0 3

Dann Corbit
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Re: Philidor IV

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:47 pm

The pawn capture is both the most frequently played move and the computer suggested move.

[d]rnbqkbnr/ppp2ppp/3p4/4p3/3PP3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - acd 40; acs 4740; bm exd4; c3 "exd4"; cce -73; ce -31; pm exd4 {4181} Nf6 {1388} Nd7 {776} f5 {233} Nc6 {151} Qe7 {99} Bg4 {86} Be6 {2} f6 {2} Be7 {1}; pv exd4; white_wins 2854; black_wins 1738; draws 2220; Opening Philidor Defense: General. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4; CaxtonID: 1489; ECO: C41;
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Henk
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Re: Philidor IV

Post by Henk » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:21 pm

[pgn]
[Event "Vienna"]
[Site "Vienna AUT"]
[Date "1873.08.05"]
[EventDate "1873.07.21"]
[Round "5.2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Adolf Anderssen"]
[Black "Louis Paulsen"]
[ECO "C41"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "107"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6
7.Bg5 Nf6 8.Nc3 Be7 9.O-O-O O-O 10.Rhe1 Re8 11.Kb1 Bd7 12.Bxf6
Bxf6 13.e5 Be7 14.Nd5 Bf8 15.exd6 cxd6 16.Rxe8 Bxe8 17.Nd2 Bc6
18.Ne4 f5 19.Nec3 Qd7 20.a3 Qf7 21.h3 a6 22.g4 Re8 23.f4 Re6
24.g5 b5 25.h4 Re8 26.Qd3 Rb8 27.h5 a5 28.b4 axb4 29.axb4 Qxh5
30.Qxf5 Qf7 31.Qd3 Bd7 32.Ne4 Qf5 33.Rh1 Re8 34.Nef6+ gxf6
35.Nxf6+ Kf7 36.Rxh7+ Bg7 37.Rxg7+ Kxg7 38.Nxe8+ Kf8 39.Qxf5+
Bxf5 40.Nxd6 Bd7 41.Ne4 Kg7 42.Ng3 Kf7 43.f5 Ke7 44.Kc1 Kd6
45.g6 Be8 46.Kd2 Kd5 47.Kd3 Ke5 48.Ke3 Kd5 49.Kf4 Kc4 50.Ne4
Kxb4 51.Nd6 Bc6 52.f6 Kc3 53.Nxb5+ Bxb5 54.f7 1-0
[/pgn]

[pgn]
[Event "Morphy - Loewenthal"]
[Site "London ENG"]
[Date "1858.07.30"]
[EventDate "1858.07.19"]
[Round "8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Paul Morphy"]
[Black "Johann Jacob Loewenthal"]
[ECO "C41"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "118"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Bd7 5.Be3 Nf6 6.Nc3 Be7
7.Bc4 Nc6 8. Qd2 Ne5 9.Nxe5 dxe5 10.O-O O-O 11.f4 Bd6 12.f5
Bc6 13.Qe2 h6 14.Rad1 Qe7 15.Bd5 Bxd5 16.Nxd5 Nxd5 17.Rxd5 f6
18.Qg4 c6 19.Rd3 Bc5 20.Qg3 Rad8 21.Rfd1 Rxd3 22.Rxd3 Rd8
23.Bxc5 Qxc5+ 24.Qf2 Qxf2+ 25.Kxf2 Rxd3 26.cxd3 c5 27.g4 Kf8
28.a4 b6 29.Kg3 Kf7 30.Kh4 Kf8 31.Kh5 Kf7 32.b3 Kf8 33.Kg6 Kg8
34.h3 Kf8 35.h4 Kg8 36.g5 hxg5 37.hxg5 fxg5 38.Kxg5 Kf7 39.Kh4
Ke7 40.Kg4 Kf6 41.Kh5 a6 42.Kh4 g6 43.a5 bxa5 44.fxg6 Kxg6
45. Kg4 a4 46.bxa4 a5 47.Kf3 Kf6 48.Kf2 Kf7 49.Kg3 Kg7 50.Kf2
Kf6 51.Kg1 Kg5 52.Kg2 Kf4 53.Kf2 c4 54.dxc4 Kxe4 55.Ke2 Kd4
56.Kf3 Kxc4 57.Ke4 Kb4 58.Kxe5 Kxa4 59.Kd4 Kb4 0-1
[/pgn]

Henk
Posts: 5103
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am

Re: Philidor IV

Post by Henk » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:45 pm

[pgn]
[Event "Riga"]
[Site "Riga"]
[Date "1954.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Alfreds Akmentins"]
[Black "Mikhail Tal"]
[ECO "C41"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "80"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Be2 O-O
7.O-O c5 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.Bf4 Be6 10.Ng5 d5 11.exd5 Bxd5 12.Bd3 g6
13.Nge4 c4 14.Nxf6+ Bxf6 15.Bxg6 Bxc3 16.Bxh7+ Kxh7 17.Qh5+
Kg8 18.bxc3 Qf6 19.Rad1 Be4 20.Bg3 Qf5 21.Qh4 Kg7 22.Rfe1 Rae8
23.f3 Bxc2 24.Bd6 Rh8 25.Qg3+ Qg6 26.Rxe8 Rxe8 27.Rd2 Qxg3
28.Bxg3 Bd3 29.Kf2 b5 30.Bd6 a5 31.a3 Rd8 32.Bc5 Rd5 33.Be3 b4
34.axb4 axb4 35.cxb4 c3 36.Ra2 Nxb4 37.Ra4 Nc2 38.Bc1 Re5
39.Rg4+ Kf6 40.Rf4+ Ke6 0-1
[/pgn]

[pgn]
[Event "FRG-URS"]
[Site "Hamburg FRG"]
[Date "1960.07.28"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "2"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Dieter A Mohrlok"]
[Black "Mikhail Tal"]
[ECO "C41"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "80"]

1.e4 d6 2.Nf3 e5 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6 bxc6
7.Nc3 Ne7 8.O-O f6 9.Be3 c5 10.Qd3 g6 11.Rad1 Bg7 12.Rfe1 Rb8
13.b3 Be6 14.Qa6 Qc8 15.Nb5 Bd7 16.Qxc8+ Rxc8 17.a4 Nc6 18.h3
Be6 19.Nc3 O-O 20.Nd5 Rfe8 21.Bc1 f5 22.exf5 gxf5 23.Nf4 Bf7
24.Ba3 Bc3 25.Rxe8+ Rxe8 26.Kf1 a5 27.Rd3 Bb4 28.Bxb4 Nxb4
29.Rd2 Kg7 30.c4 Kf6 31.Re2 Re4 32.g3 c6 33.Nd2 Rd4 34.Nf3
Rd1+ 35.Re1 Rxe1+ 36.Kxe1 d5 37.Nd2 h6 38.Ke2 Ke5 39.Ke3 Nc2+
40.Kd3 Nd4 0-1
[/pgn]

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