TCEC 10

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

User avatar
AdminX
Posts: 4864
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: Acworth, GA
Contact:

Re: TCEC 10

Post by AdminX » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:59 am

Geonerd wrote:[profanity], this is a pedantic, argumentative bunch! :(

Have any of the people lecturing the world on "correct statistics" even looked at the bleeping games???
IMO, Houdini has a clear 'pull' over Komodo in the middle-game, and is generally the one with winning chances. Combine that with the current score and - yea - I'd call it a 'thrashing.'
Well it ain't over till it's over, however I do agree with you about the current state of affairs. Of the 5 wins so far, game number 12 has been my favorite.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers

User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 3833
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: TCEC 10

Post by Eelco de Groot » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:06 am

It's the search gap. Gettit ? Out of this search gap comes all the naive speculation and nonsense that gets written. The program has every style and no style, it has no consistency to play against, only materialism, you can't learn from it, tomorrow it will be different (found another mine in the search gap), only the difference is just a relection of - whoops, trod on another mine. What can you do with such a program ? Use the take-back key and try again ? - and imagine this helps you improve or learn ?

Now, I claim this search gap has no meaning or understanding possibilities for a human. That a human can't relate his heuristics to it. That you can't extract the knowledge out of it and represent it to a human. That you can't even extract the knowledge out of it and represent it to yourself. You can't get heuristics from it. So I call it counting beans - useless for us humans.

Now, take a knowledge program, you can play it and see the play style. You can try and work out what it does and why. There'll be a reason, based on human chess heuristics. The game has plan, and flow, and doesn't consist of hidden minefields. It won't grind you down by search, it will try speculative ideas which it might, or might not, be able to get to work. You can see the speculative ideas, and try them yourself. I think you can, as a human, relate to this type of program. If you know the programmer, maybe you can see patterns into the program that come from him, and so on. I think these types of programs are infused with some force, in so far as any chunk of silicon can be.

I hate materialists.

Chris Whittington
With courtesy copied from Adam Hair's blog Haven't looked at the bleeping games yet, sorry. Not that I call Houdini a beancounter I just thought of this 'echo from the past'. When there's a speed difference you get things like that.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

acase
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:14 am
Location: Columbus, Ohio USA

Re: TCEC 10

Post by acase » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:11 am

Geonerd wrote:[profanity], this is a pedantic, argumentative bunch! :(

Have any of the people lecturing the world on "correct statistics" even looked at the bleeping games???
IMO, Houdini has a clear 'pull' over Komodo in the middle-game, and is generally the one with winning chances. Combine that with the current score and - yea - I'd call it a 'thrashing.'


Indeed, that is how it is here at the computer chess club. Everyone has an ego, and nobody will ever give an inch (or centimeter) in admitting they might be wrong. Not only that, they get into all of these irrelevant side arguments like nit-picking every single technicality and trashing the other guy's grammar or spelling. It is the same way over at the chess thinkers forum.

User avatar
AdminX
Posts: 4864
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: Acworth, GA
Contact:

Re: TCEC 10

Post by AdminX » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:39 am

Super final Game 12 video review. GM Thechesspuzzler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgiLsvGeGCA
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers

Jouni
Posts: 1782
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:15 pm

Re: TCEC 10

Post by Jouni » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:03 pm

6 - 1 for Houdini. With traditional human Wch rules it's over! Minor interest: will Houdini get black win? I predict yes.
Jouni

Dann Corbit
Posts: 8586
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: TCEC 10

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:24 am

Jouni wrote:6 - 1 for Houdini. With traditional human Wch rules it's over! Minor interest: will Houdini get black win? I predict yes.
Right now, there are 55 out of 100 games not completed with score:
Komodo + 1 = 34 - 7
Which means it is possible to finish +56 = 34 -7
Though admittedly (cough) highly unlikely.

So I am wondering what kind of cock-eyed traditional rules mandate a win for the side with advantage at this point? It is (quite frankly) absurd unless they have "skunk" or "mercy" rules.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Uri Blass
Posts: 8009
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: TCEC 10

Post by Uri Blass » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:23 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Jouni wrote:6 - 1 for Houdini. With traditional human Wch rules it's over! Minor interest: will Houdini get black win? I predict yes.
Right now, there are 55 out of 100 games not completed with score:
Komodo + 1 = 34 - 7
Which means it is possible to finish +56 = 34 -7
Though admittedly (cough) highly unlikely.

So I am wondering what kind of cock-eyed traditional rules mandate a win for the side with advantage at this point? It is (quite frankly) absurd unless they have "skunk" or "mercy" rules.
Traditional human wch rules say that the side that get 6 wins first win.

User avatar
AdminX
Posts: 4864
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: Acworth, GA
Contact:

Re: TCEC 10

Post by AdminX » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:45 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Jouni wrote:6 - 1 for Houdini. With traditional human Wch rules it's over! Minor interest: will Houdini get black win? I predict yes.
Right now, there are 55 out of 100 games not completed with score:
Komodo + 1 = 34 - 7
Which means it is possible to finish +56 = 34 -7
Though admittedly (cough) highly unlikely.
In a Galaxy, that's far far away from ours! :lol:
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers

op12no2
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:25 am
Location: Mumbles, Wales, UK.
Contact:

Re: TCEC 10

Post by op12no2 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:56 pm


Michel
Posts: 1960
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: TCEC 10

Post by Michel » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:26 am

The z-value (W+L)/sqrt(W-L) is currently 5/3=1.66, well within the 95% interval [-1.96,1.96]. So the claims that Komodo is being routed were premature.

Of course we have to wait for the final outcome but currently there is little hard evidence to back up the general perception here that Houdini is now somehow "much stronger" than Komodo.
Ideas=science. Simplification=engineering.
Without ideas there is nothing to simplify.

Post Reply