Human versus Machine

Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.

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Milos
Posts: 2992
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:47 am

Re: Human versus Machine

Post by Milos » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:44 pm

Guenther wrote:Well, you are in the wrong thread and LKs post has nothing to do with what you replied, obviously driven by some agenda.

He simply answered to a question of LT, but the orginal quote somehow slipped away:
If engine A draws a match of 20 games against engine B with both engines not pondering, what would be the score, how many elos will engine A that ponders gain in the same match against engine B that does not ponder?
How much dependent this will be on time control?
His answer has nothing to do with ponder at all. He doesn't mention ponder in it, and to estimate Elo in case of ponder engine against non-ponder one needs to know ponder-hit ratio which depends on the absolute strength of the engines.

On the other hand LT replies to LK's post with:
That ballpark would make for 5 full points in 100 games, just the difference between Komodo or Houdini winning TCEC.
which means it is you who obviously got it wrong.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6033
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Human versus Machine

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:33 pm

Milos wrote:
Guenther wrote:Well, you are in the wrong thread and LKs post has nothing to do with what you replied, obviously driven by some agenda.

He simply answered to a question of LT, but the orginal quote somehow slipped away:
If engine A draws a match of 20 games against engine B with both engines not pondering, what would be the score, how many elos will engine A that ponders gain in the same match against engine B that does not ponder?
How much dependent this will be on time control?
His answer has nothing to do with ponder at all. He doesn't mention ponder in it, and to estimate Elo in case of ponder engine against non-ponder one needs to know ponder-hit ratio which depends on the absolute strength of the engines.

On the other hand LT replies to LK's post with:
That ballpark would make for 5 full points in 100 games, just the difference between Komodo or Houdini winning TCEC.
which means it is you who obviously got it wrong.
I guess MS and GS did not understand LK and LT, or vice-versa.

My question was actually very simple: in case I have 5 minutes for the game, and the machine 2 minutes, just as an example, and the machine ponders, how much strength it would gain in comparison to the case, when it will not ponder?
Could this be translated into time increment?

lkaufman
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
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Re: Human versus Machine

Post by lkaufman » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:11 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Milos wrote:
Guenther wrote:Well, you are in the wrong thread and LKs post has nothing to do with what you replied, obviously driven by some agenda.

He simply answered to a question of LT, but the orginal quote somehow slipped away:
If engine A draws a match of 20 games against engine B with both engines not pondering, what would be the score, how many elos will engine A that ponders gain in the same match against engine B that does not ponder?
How much dependent this will be on time control?
His answer has nothing to do with ponder at all. He doesn't mention ponder in it, and to estimate Elo in case of ponder engine against non-ponder one needs to know ponder-hit ratio which depends on the absolute strength of the engines.

On the other hand LT replies to LK's post with:
That ballpark would make for 5 full points in 100 games, just the difference between Komodo or Houdini winning TCEC.
which means it is you who obviously got it wrong.
I guess MS and GS did not understand LK and LT, or vice-versa.

My question was actually very simple: in case I have 5 minutes for the game, and the machine 2 minutes, just as an example, and the machine ponders, how much strength it would gain in comparison to the case, when it will not ponder?
Could this be translated into time increment?
I suppose ponder hits are much lower against a human than against another computer. Maybe in your example 2 min with ponder might be about as strong as 3.5 or so minutes without ponder, which would in turn be about like 2 min plus 3 sec increment without ponder. Note that the greater the time odds, the more ponder adds to elo. With equal time it might be 20 elo or so in fast games, but at say one hour to one minute odds it might be more than a hundred elo. That's why when we played GM Erenburg with 90 to 3 min time odds we also turned off ponder, as with ponder the odds would have been much less.
Komodo rules!

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6033
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Human versus Machine

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:40 pm

lkaufman wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Milos wrote:
Guenther wrote:Well, you are in the wrong thread and LKs post has nothing to do with what you replied, obviously driven by some agenda.

He simply answered to a question of LT, but the orginal quote somehow slipped away:
If engine A draws a match of 20 games against engine B with both engines not pondering, what would be the score, how many elos will engine A that ponders gain in the same match against engine B that does not ponder?
How much dependent this will be on time control?
His answer has nothing to do with ponder at all. He doesn't mention ponder in it, and to estimate Elo in case of ponder engine against non-ponder one needs to know ponder-hit ratio which depends on the absolute strength of the engines.

On the other hand LT replies to LK's post with:
That ballpark would make for 5 full points in 100 games, just the difference between Komodo or Houdini winning TCEC.
which means it is you who obviously got it wrong.
I guess MS and GS did not understand LK and LT, or vice-versa.

My question was actually very simple: in case I have 5 minutes for the game, and the machine 2 minutes, just as an example, and the machine ponders, how much strength it would gain in comparison to the case, when it will not ponder?
Could this be translated into time increment?
I suppose ponder hits are much lower against a human than against another computer. Maybe in your example 2 min with ponder might be about as strong as 3.5 or so minutes without ponder, which would in turn be about like 2 min plus 3 sec increment without ponder. Note that the greater the time odds, the more ponder adds to elo. With equal time it might be 20 elo or so in fast games, but at say one hour to one minute odds it might be more than a hundred elo. That's why when we played GM Erenburg with 90 to 3 min time odds we also turned off ponder, as with ponder the odds would have been much less.
Without having done any tests, I have pretty much the same intuitive understanding.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6033
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Stockfish and Fischer

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:32 am

I will post this here, as it has some relevance to computer chess and human-engine competition.

After doing an extensive study of the Fischer game collection, with the help of Stockfish, I just published a book on the theme:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078N ... _rd_i=4406

While going through the positional test suite, including 112 test positions, I had to ascertain that Stockfish still fails to solve around one third, but maybe even close to half of the puzzles. With the tactical set, Stockfish has no problems at all, all solved.

Make the conclusions yourselves how weak actually Stockfish is and how strong Fischer.

So, you might just want to forget anything about alleged engine superiority in chess.

pilgrimdan
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: Stockfish and Fischer

Post by pilgrimdan » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:07 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:I will post this here, as it has some relevance to computer chess and human-engine competition.

After doing an extensive study of the Fischer game collection, with the help of Stockfish, I just published a book on the theme:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078N ... _rd_i=4406

While going through the positional test suite, including 112 test positions, I had to ascertain that Stockfish still fails to solve around one third, but maybe even close to half of the puzzles. With the tactical set, Stockfish has no problems at all, all solved.

Make the conclusions yourselves how weak actually Stockfish is and how strong Fischer.

So, you might just want to forget anything about alleged engine superiority in chess.
sounds interesting Lyudmil ... may buy and take a look ...

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6033
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Stockfish and Fischer

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:18 am

pilgrimdan wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:I will post this here, as it has some relevance to computer chess and human-engine competition.

After doing an extensive study of the Fischer game collection, with the help of Stockfish, I just published a book on the theme:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078N ... _rd_i=4406

While going through the positional test suite, including 112 test positions, I had to ascertain that Stockfish still fails to solve around one third, but maybe even close to half of the puzzles. With the tactical set, Stockfish has no problems at all, all solved.

Make the conclusions yourselves how weak actually Stockfish is and how strong Fischer.

So, you might just want to forget anything about alleged engine superiority in chess.
sounds interesting Lyudmil ... may buy and take a look ...
[d]r4rk1/2q1bpp1/pn3n1p/1pp1pP2/6P1/1BP4P/PP1N1P2/R1BQR1K1 w - - 0 17

One of the positions from the positional suite my SF does not see(I don't know about the latest version on big hardware).
17. h4 wins
Does any engine see this easily wins?
Why would SF fail to see that?

It's not you Dan, I guess SF developers need the book. :D

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6033
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Stockfish and Fischer

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:37 am

Oops, this is Fischer-Benko, New York 1965

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6033
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Stockfish and Fischer

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:50 am

One more SF will probably never get:
[d]r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp1bnp/3PpN2/2N1P1PP/1R1B1PBK/3Q1R2 b - - 0 19

Andrew already has posted this.

SF has to find 19...Bg4. When?

This is from Nikolic-Fischer, Vinkovci 1968

beram
Posts: 1187
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:11 pm

Re: Stockfish and Fischer

Post by beram » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:47 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
pilgrimdan wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:I will post this here, as it has some relevance to computer chess and human-engine competition.

After doing an extensive study of the Fischer game collection, with the help of Stockfish, I just published a book on the theme:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078N ... _rd_i=4406

While going through the positional test suite, including 112 test positions, I had to ascertain that Stockfish still fails to solve around one third, but maybe even close to half of the puzzles. With the tactical set, Stockfish has no problems at all, all solved.

Make the conclusions yourselves how weak actually Stockfish is and how strong Fischer.

So, you might just want to forget anything about alleged engine superiority in chess.
sounds interesting Lyudmil ... may buy and take a look ...
[d]r4rk1/2q1bpp1/pn3n1p/1pp1pP2/6P1/1BP4P/PP1N1P2/R1BQR1K1 w - - 0 17

One of the positions from the positional suite my SF does not see(I don't know about the latest version on big hardware).
17. h4 wins
Does any engine see this easily wins?
Why would SF fail to see that?

It's not you Dan, I guess SF developers need the book. :D
The move h4! doesn't win Lyudmil

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