Historic Milestone: AlphaZero

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Jouni
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Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero

Post by Jouni » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:59 pm

Did this published paper give any estimate for perfect chess? One figure has 3500 limit or +100 from SF8. Are we near? Where is Kai, when we need him :) ?
Jouni

Lion
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Location: Switzerland

Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero

Post by Lion » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:00 pm

Why would they have a clue of what is perfect chess?

IanO
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Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero

Post by IanO » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:57 pm

corres wrote:2, Alpha Zero did not start from zero knowledge about chess
because it was [fed] a lot of human games at start up.
Where did you see that? My impression is the opposite, they explicitly did not use any prior human chess knowledge besides the basic rules, hence the "Zero" in AlphaZero.

Spliffjiffer
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Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero

Post by Spliffjiffer » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:13 pm

personally i have no doubt that the "4 hours thing" is the truth...and even if its 4 days, thats no difference imo....the fact, that that "process" manages to get to such a ultra-high level of playingstrengh is nothing other than revolutionary and thats simply a scary, very scary, fact that we are faced with :-(
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

Albert Silver
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Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta

Post by Albert Silver » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:34 pm

Rebel wrote:Can't believe it without a press release from Google.
They did more than that. They published a scientific paper anyone can read.

https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-futur ... arns-chess
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

Milos
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Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta

Post by Milos » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:38 pm

Albert Silver wrote:
Rebel wrote:Can't believe it without a press release from Google.
They did more than that. They published a scientific paper anyone can read.

https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-futur ... arns-chess
Why not actually cite a paper instead of your article, why the need for self-promotion?
https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.01815

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Laskos
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Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero

Post by Laskos » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:38 pm

Jouni wrote:Did this published paper give any estimate for perfect chess? One figure has 3500 limit or +100 from SF8. Are we near? Where is Kai, when we need him :) ?
I started following yesterday this development, I have no much time recently.

About your question. First, to define perfect chess. Say, perfect chess in the sense of non-swindling or fooling around, 32-men tablebases.

I had a wide range of estimates, from 3700-4500 CCRL 40/40 rating points, and with the latest data of Andreas Strangmüller tipping to the lower bound, say 3800.

With this result, +28 =72 -0 (is it correct, or I missed some more results?), the tip is again towards a low bound in ELO. a +36 =56 -8 result would tip towards a higher ELO bound, although the ELO advantage of AlphaZero would have been the same over SF8.

It seems both these monsters play very often perfect moves, and sometimes maybe even perfect games. So, it seems the ELO bound cannot be very far away.
Last edited by Laskos on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Albert Silver
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Re: MCTS-NN vs alpha-beta

Post by Albert Silver » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:41 pm

Milos wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Rebel wrote:Can't believe it without a press release from Google.
They did more than that. They published a scientific paper anyone can read.

https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-futur ... arns-chess
Why not actually cite a paper instead of your article, why the need for self-promotion?
https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.01815
Because I wanted to.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

Leo
Posts: 427
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Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota USA

Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero

Post by Leo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:43 pm

Laskos wrote:
Jouni wrote:Did this published paper give any estimate for perfect chess? One figure has 3500 limit or +100 from SF8. Are we near? Where is Kai, when we need him :) ?
I started following yesterday this development, I have no much time recently.

About your question. First, to define perfect chess. Say, perfect chess in the sense of non-swindling or fooling around, 32-men tablebases.

I had a wide range of estimates, from 3700-4500 CCRL 40/40 rating points, and with the latest data of Andreas Strangmüller tipping to the lower bound, say 3800.

Again, this result, +28 =72 -0 (is it correct, or I missed some more results?), the tip is again towards a low bound in ELO. a +36 =56 -8 result would tip towards a higher ELO bound, although the ELO advantage of AlphaZero would have been the same over SF8.

It seems both these monsters play very often perfect moves, and sometimes maybe even perfect games. So, it seems the ELO bound cannot be very far away.
Alpha Zero won only 3 games with black.
Brainfish fan. AMD fan.

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fern
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Re: Historic Milestone: AlphaZero

Post by fern » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:47 pm

In a way this is the end of chess.
In 25 years, the end of us as the leading mental entity in the earth.

Becoming a kitten regards
F

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