Looking inside NNs

Discussion of chess software programming and technical issues.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
jwes
Posts: 773
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:11 am

Looking inside NNs

Post by jwes » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:47 pm

I ran across this which claims to explain the predictions of a NN. I have no idea if it works, but it would be interesting to run it on AlphaZero or giraffe.
code is here

Henk
Posts: 5103
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am

Re: Looking inside NNs

Post by Henk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:33 pm

There are three things you should know about a neural network.
It is slow, slow and slow.

I am only talking about one CPU. I have no GPU.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 8670
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Looking inside NNs

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:41 pm

Henk wrote:There are three things you should know about a neural network.
It is slow, slow and slow.

I am only talking about one CPU. I have no GPU.
A 2 TF GPU does not cost very much.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Henk
Posts: 5103
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am

Re: Looking inside NNs

Post by Henk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:51 pm

I only buy new hardware after ten years. My computer is 'only' five years old and you always buy too early.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 8670
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Looking inside NNs

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:06 pm

Henk wrote:I only buy new hardware after ten years. My computer is 'only' five years old and you always buy too early.
You don't need a whole new computer, just a card to pop into it.
https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_value.html
Most MIPS per Dollar:
Radeon RX 550

About $100.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Henk
Posts: 5103
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am

Re: Looking inside NNs

Post by Henk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:24 pm

If it is only plug in and play.

I also am scared of opening machines I know nothing about. Maybe if there are good instruction videos.

They also told me never to repair your TV yourself because you may get electro shock.

jdart
Posts: 3507
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:23 am
Location: http://www.arasanchess.org

Re: Looking inside NNs

Post by jdart » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:53 am

It's also, by the nature of the thing, kind of opaque. You can explain a traditional chess evaluation function in words but explaining what a NN does in evaluation is difficult (the linked software provides a local linear approximation but that is not a good model of the NN in general).

--Jon

Dann Corbit
Posts: 8670
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Looking inside NNs

Post by Dann Corbit » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:16 am

Henk wrote:If it is only plug in and play.

I also am scared of opening machines I know nothing about. Maybe if there are good instruction videos.

They also told me never to repair your TV yourself because you may get electro shock.
Unplug your computer from the wall and there is no danger.
If you are nervous to do it, find a friend who will do it for you.
It is at two minute job.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Henk
Posts: 5103
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am

Re: Looking inside NNs

Post by Henk » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:07 am

I think computershop do upgrades too. But then I probably pay 100 euro more.

My father upgraded his computer some years ago. But was not a success for after a few years it was still too slow.


Value of hardware and software is just like firework. Zero.

I remember university department buying expensive graphical chip in 1991 for tons or millions of dollars. Being worthless after three years. I remember they were complaining about it.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 8670
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Looking inside NNs

Post by Dann Corbit » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:34 am

Henk wrote:I think computershop do upgrades too. But then I probably pay 100 euro more.

My father upgraded his computer some years ago. But was not a success for after a few years it was still too slow.


Value of hardware and software is just like firework. Zero.

I remember university department buying expensive graphical chip in 1991 for tons or millions of dollars. Being worthless after three years. I remember they were complaining about it.
All hardware decays exponentially in comparison to previous generations. But during the period that you use it, the value is palpable.

Therefore, it is not necessary to avoid buying hardware simply because it will be out of date quickly.

But if you are not comfortable performing the upgrade or you are not comfortable having a friend perform the upgrade or you are not interested in performing an upgrade or you do not feel the value of the upgrade is equivalent to the price then I suggest that you do not perform the upgrade.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Post Reply