Something very strange [Strelka]

[Rolf]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

I really don't know what to think. I just think that it is astonishing that Strelka reproduces Rybka 1.0, including bugs (if -- indeed -- that really is the case).

It simply does not make sense to me, and so I am puzzled. Quite frankly, even simple and miniscule changes to either eval or search will often cause very large fluctuations in the pv output of a program. I have even seen significant changes from something as estoteric as optimizer settings.

I am genuinely wondering how such a thing is possible. I guess that if we carefully explore the outputs of both programs for a wide variety of positions then we must necessarily find lots of differences or I am really missing something.

In all clarity. Would you want to be puzzled in serious by someone who blackmailed someone like Vas with the "threat" to publish the source of Rybka programs? (Dont you see that you cant seriously be puzzled by such a crook? What is going on here?)

[Dann Corbit]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

I really don't know what to think. I just think that it is astonishing that Strelka reproduces Rybka 1.0, including bugs (if -- indeed -- that really is the case).

It simply does not make sense to me, and so I am puzzled. Quite frankly, even simple and miniscule changes to either eval or search will often cause very large fluctuations in the pv output of a program. I have even seen significant changes from something as estoteric as optimizer settings.

I am genuinely wondering how such a thing is possible. I guess that if we carefully explore the outputs of both programs for a wide variety of positions then we must necessarily find lots of differences or I am really missing something.

In all clarity. Would you want to be puzzled in serious by someone who blackmailed someone like Vas with the "threat" to publish the source of Rybka programs? (Dont you see that you cant seriously be puzzled by such a crook? What is going on here?)

I don't think you see my point. If Yusipov has borrowed both from Fruit and from Rybka, then really it should play somewhat like Fruit and somewhat like Rybka but not a whole lot like either one in the final tally. That is what is puzzling me.

For instance, if I go and change the pawn shelter bonus for some program by 5% and recompile, then I will expect to see a somewhat different pv.

If I change the pruning and extension decisions in the search, then I will expect to see a radically different pv.

I just wonder how was Yusipov able to emulate exactly the search of Rybka. I would think that the cases where it reproduces Rybka must be somewhat coincidental and that a deeper search will turn up lots of differences if we examine more positions.

[Enrico]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

That was not the problem with Sloppy. It was the fact that the psqts used where found in Toga. By this I mean the article on Toga....see here....

http://members.aon.at/josefd/Toga%20LOG ... Manual.zip

Compare for yourself. Why he could not make his own ones was beyond me? Anyway.......these days anything is possible.

Christopher

Toga is GPL

Yes.....so lets all use the same piece square tables......



Let's use Toga's.

And.....

What license is the Strelka source released under?

This i've gotta hear.....

WGACA License...

What goes around comes around regards,

-elc.

[Rolf]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

I really don't know what to think. I just think that it is astonishing that Strelka reproduces Rybka 1.0, including bugs (if -- indeed -- that really is the case).

It simply does not make sense to me, and so I am puzzled. Quite frankly, even simple and miniscule changes to either eval or search will often cause very large fluctuations in the pv output of a program. I have even seen significant changes from something as estoteric as optimizer settings.

I am genuinely wondering how such a thing is possible. I guess that if we carefully explore the outputs of both programs for a wide variety of positions then we must necessarily find lots of differences or I am really missing something.

In all clarity. Would you want to be puzzled in serious by someone who blackmailed someone like Vas with the "threat" to publish the source of Rybka programs? (Dont you see that you cant seriously be puzzled by such a crook? What is going on here?)

I don't think you see my point. If Yusipov has borrowed both from Fruit and from Rybka, then really it should play somewhat like Fruit and somewhat like Rybka but not a whole lot like either one in the final tally. That is what is puzzling me.

For instance, if I go and change the pawn shelter bonus for some program by 5% and recompile, then I will expect to see a somewhat different pv.

If I change the pruning and extension decisions in the search, then I will expect to see a radically different pv.

I just wonder how was Yusipov able to emulate exactly the search of Rybka. I would think that the cases where it reproduces Rybka must be somewhat coincidental and that a deeper search will turn up lots of differences if we examine more positions.

Dann, you are wondering and scientifically you are more than justified to wonder but actually we have a case with an unknown and anonymous and blackmailing figure and for the moment we shouldnt ask all such details how the future defendent did achieve all that caused so much confusion. We should better help Vas to get around with this situation. This is what I mean with my question. Apart from that, who am I to step into your genuine expert field? I am just trying to show you that this what you do is actually supporting the anonymous wrong-doing figure. Are you happy with the little jokes from Geno? I wished an expert like you would postpone the technical questions and to support Vas and his Rybka. Isnt that a fair proposal? Just try to ignore this alleged Russian computerchess programming wise for a while. This is a case of a criminal threat against the actually best programmer of a chessprogram in our community. I still wonder why nobody has criticised Chrilly months ago...

Wouldnt you support with me a petition that urges the tournament organisers of the next 10th CGT (name?) to ban the progs who stand clearly under Strelka suspicion? Please please give your say for the defending against the real threat as a member with one of the best names. This isnt a court case where a judge will make the final verdict. This is a nightmare that we ouselves must end as fast as we can. All IMO of course.

[Dann Corbit]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

I really don't know what to think. I just think that it is astonishing that Strelka reproduces Rybka 1.0, including bugs (if -- indeed -- that really is the case).

It simply does not make sense to me, and so I am puzzled. Quite frankly, even simple and miniscule changes to either eval or search will often cause very large fluctuations in the pv output of a program. I have even seen significant changes from something as estoteric as optimizer settings.

I am genuinely wondering how such a thing is possible. I guess that if we carefully explore the outputs of both programs for a wide variety of positions then we must necessarily find lots of differences or I am really missing something.

In all clarity. Would you want to be puzzled in serious by someone who blackmailed someone like Vas with the "threat" to publish the source of Rybka programs? (Dont you see that you cant seriously be puzzled by such a crook? What is going on here?)

I don't think you see my point. If Yusipov has borrowed both from Fruit and from Rybka, then really it should play somewhat like Fruit and somewhat like Rybka but not a whole lot like either one in the final tally. That is what is puzzling me.

For instance, if I go and change the pawn shelter bonus for some program by 5% and recompile, then I will expect to see a somewhat different pv.

If I change the pruning and extension decisions in the search, then I will expect to see a radically different pv.

I just wonder how was Yusipov able to emulate exactly the search of Rybka. I would think that the cases where it reproduces Rybka must be somewhat coincidental and that a deeper search will turn up lots of differences if we examine more positions.

Dann, you are wondering and scientifically you are more than justified to wonder but actually we have a case with an unknown and anonymous and blackmailing figure and for the moment we shouldnt ask all such details how the future defendent did achieve all that caused so much confusion. We should better help Vas to get around with this situation. This is what I mean with my question. Apart from that, who am I to step into your genuine expert field? I am just trying to show you that this what you do is actually supporting the anonymous wrong-doing figure. Are you happy with the little jokes from Geno? I wished an expert like you would postpone the technical questions and to support Vas and his Rybka. Isnt that a fair proposal? Just try to ignore this alleged Russian computerchess programming wise for a while. This is a case of a criminal threat against the actually best programmer of a chessprogram in our community. I still wonder why nobody has criticised Chrilly months ago...

Wouldnt you support with me a petition that urges the tournament organisers of the next 10th CGT (name?) to ban the progs who stand clearly under Strelka suspicion? Please please give your say for the defending against the real threat as a member with one of the best names. This isnt a court case where a judge will make the final verdict. This is a nightmare that we ouselves must end as fast as we can. All IMO of course.

I think that the reason nobody criticized Chrilly is because he did nothing whatsoever that was in the slightest degree legally wrong.

From:
http://www.onlineethics.org/cms/7477.aspx

We have this:
"It is legally and ethically acceptable for a company to purchase a commercially available product, to analyze it thoroughly, to design and develop a similar product and a method for its manufacture; provided the new product and method do not violate the patent rights of another company."

In his instance, I guess that he had no commercial gain from it anyway. I think he just wanted to know what made it tick.

[Nid Hogge]

I don't think you see my point. If Yusipov has borrowed both from Fruit and from Rybka, then really it should play somewhat like Fruit and somewhat like Rybka but not a whole lot like either one in the final tally. That is what is puzzling me.

For instance, if I go and change the pawn shelter bonus for some program by 5% and recompile, then I will expect to see a somewhat different pv.

If I change the pruning and extension decisions in the search, then I will expect to see a radically different pv.

I just wonder how was Yusipov able to emulate exactly the search of Rybka. I would think that the cases where it reproduces Rybka must be somewhat coincidental and that a deeper search will turn up lots of differences if we examine more positions.

I think you miss the point Dann. and this as well http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... l?tid=3006

"Osipov" didn't "borrow" or "emulate" Rybka search, he decompiled it, copied and made his own "osipov" add ons. that's why the PV is not 100% identical in all positions, just in some where he didn't change too much.

It's beyond me how you can still think it's "coincidental", now that Vas has spoken. before the code was released you said the best measure will be for the original Authors to take a look at the code and comment, and now that they did it still not enough for you. You think Vas has a good reason to lie about it? or get into all the legal action? There's not going to be proof than this you know. time to accept it and move on(and hunt "Osipov" on the way).

[Nid Hogge]

I think that the reason nobody criticized Chrilly is because he did nothing whatsoever that was in the slightest degree legally wrong.

From:
http://www.onlineethics.org/cms/7477.aspx

We have this:
"It is legally and ethically acceptable for a company to purchase a commercially available product, to analyze it thoroughly, to design and develop a similar product and a method for its manufacture; provided the new product and method do not violate the patent rights of another company."

In his instance, I guess that he had no commercial gain from it anyway. I think he just wanted to know what made it tick.

Or maybe because he didn't publish it as his own, with Open Source under pseudo name?

Dissembling might be legal .. releasing the stolen code under your name is NOT. (or going commercially with it in a competitive market).

[Dann Corbit]

And you do not understand what I am saying. If Osipov has borrowed ideas from Fruit (and most people are saying that he has and in my opinion he has) then it is not possible for his program to ply like Rybka and yet still use the ideas of Fruit.

Don't you see the dilemma? I see two possibilities:
1. They are not so much clones like most people think
2. Something unimaginable.

I am sure that there are more possibilities than these, but it is where I am stuck.

My puzzlement is that I cannot understand it.

[Uri Blass]

And you do not understand what I am saying. If Osipov has borrowed ideas from Fruit (and most people are saying that he has and in my opinion he has) then it is not possible for his program to ply like Rybka and yet still use the ideas of Fruit.

Don't you see the dilemma? I see two possibilities:
1. They are not so much clones like most people think
2. Something unimaginable.

I am sure that there are more possibilities than these, but it is where I am stuck.

My puzzlement is that I cannot understand it.

I do not understand the problem.
There is no rule that using ideas from fruit is illegal

I see no contradiction between the following that I believe to be correct:

1)Rybka is using ideas from fruit.
2)Strelka is using ideas from fruit.
3)Strelka(version1.8) was designed to play similiar to rybka
by reverse engineering rybka and using ideas from fruit.

Uri

[Dann Corbit]

I think that the reason nobody criticized Chrilly is because he did nothing whatsoever that was in the slightest degree legally wrong.

From:
http://www.onlineethics.org/cms/7477.aspx

We have this:
"It is legally and ethically acceptable for a company to purchase a commercially available product, to analyze it thoroughly, to design and develop a similar product and a method for its manufacture; provided the new product and method do not violate the patent rights of another company."

In his instance, I guess that he had no commercial gain from it anyway. I think he just wanted to know what made it tick.

Or maybe because he didn't publish it as his own, with Open Source under pseudo name?

Dissembling might be legal .. releasing the stolen code under your name is NOT.

Did you even bother to read what was quoted above? I think not.

Go to the cited link, read the material, and then decide what you think is legal or illegal. I think you do not understand what is legal or illegal.

According to my understanding, as far as Rybka, I doubt if it is possible for Yusipov to have committed a crime according to what we know (It would have been illegal, for instance, to modify the binary and sell that I imagine). Now, with regards to Fruit it could be possible because of GPL restrictions. On the other hand I am not a legal expert so I can be wrong about the use of Rybka 1.0 also.

Now, moral issues are altogether different, but I do not choose what is moral for other persons -- I choose only for myself what is moral for me and let others decide what is moral for them.