WCCC China 2008

[bob]

You act surprised. WCCC in Paris relied on Thorsten and his cell phone to get information out. No network access of any kind. Seems ridiculous for an organization that has "computer" in the name, does it not???

And that from a veritable professor in computer science. It's so easy to understand:

Academics have their own way to behave in a hobbym dont forget the notion hobby. It's exactly this contradiction which attracts brainers like academics. We shouldnt combine this with academics alone. In principle it's a very normal intellectual attitude. Your mind works on most modern and deepest thinkable levels but you organise your life and these hobbies in a very natural, average, even basic and primitive manner. Look where you want. Take Wittgenstein, take Lawrence, take Einstein, take Shaw, to name just a couple of them, they all liked a very simple life on simple grounds. We must not go back to Jesus or Franz of Assisi.

What does that mean for the organising of such little CC event? It's exactly the contrapoint to a perfectly organised World event. It's rather a kitchen amateur in jest chance directed event with the simple rule that it starts with round one and then continues with round one plus 1 which makes two. Nothing is really perfectly pre-defined. In case of conflict the professor looks for a second and makes a false but simple decision. This is what de Hering is famous for. Without such a spleen Levy would not have made his promotion about sex with machines. It's all like a small kindergarden with games for kids.

It is absolutely false to combine the Wch in Paris with the activities on a cell phone. In a way this cellphone was the destruction of the academic slowliness which proceeds in steps of a journal that appears in quarters of a year. It's not something that happens in rhythm of minutes or hours. It's likewise very insulting for the scene that there is a webpage in France with schedule and games. It's ridiculous to see. Academics and intellectuals like it only if only three casual game scores are published from 40 in total. Otherwise where would be the suspense factor???

I have no idea what all of that is supposed to mean...

[BubbaTough]

When I started dabbling with chess after a long absence I was delighted to see many human tournaments where you are able to follow along move by move over the internet...delightful! It really helped encourage and maintain my interest. I find it builds suspense watching games live compared to waiting to see results. Its like watching a soccer game, rather than reading about the results. I also enjoy watching Olivier's chess wars which has a very nice live broadcast with chat. I wish I had started participating years ago.

It is unfortunate that WCCC could not manage to replicate this functionality. I am still interested in the results, but am not following carefully like I would if there were a broadcast. How surprising it is is dependent on how much you know about the history of the WCCC I guess.

-Sam

[bob]

When I started dabbling with chess after a long absence I was delighted to see many human tournaments where you are able to follow along move by move over the internet...delightful! It really helped encourage and maintain my interest. I find it builds suspense watching games live compared to waiting to see results. Its like watching a soccer game, rather than reading about the results. I also enjoy watching Olivier's chess wars which has a very nice live broadcast with chat. I wish I had started participating years ago.

It is unfortunate that WCCC could not manage to replicate this functionality. I am still interested in the results, but am not following carefully like I would if there were a broadcast. How surprising it is is dependent on how much you know about the history of the WCCC I guess.

-Sam

I tried for years to get them to go to an automated system. Everyone could still come and play, but they could set up a local chess server and automate the games themselves to get the humans "out of the loop". Would be much cleaner, no chess clocks or boards needed, and it could be automatically broadcast.

Alas, no such luck. And they wonder why there is such a lack of interest. Someone is _not_ thinking.

[Rolf]

I have no idea what all of that is supposed to mean...

Did you ever study the lives of the mentioned people of history? What I wrote is a sort of imagined and summarized possibility of these professors who do the CC thing in their spare time as a hobby. Jaap vdH but also the others. It's the enormous love approach but not a bureaucratic one of exaggerated perfection.

So, exactly what you proposed here again is exactly the opposite of the yearlong tradition which then would kill all the fun. What the fun is? It's the magic moment of the opening of a direct clash between two programmers or less funny of their operators. The same thing, Bob, you must have gone through too. It's somehow the fantasy of a very human fight and not one of machines. Although they stand behind it. They even dominate it but the guys save their very personal superiority of man.

Just try to remember yourself. Please give us a report how you enjoyed the first ACM weekends.

[bob]

I have no idea what all of that is supposed to mean...

Did you ever study the lives of the mentioned people of history? What I wrote is a sort of imagined and summarized possibility of these professors who do the CC thing in their spare time as a hobby. Jaap vdH but also the others. It's the enormous love approach but not a bureaucratic one of exaggerated perfection.

So, exactly what you proposed here again is exactly the opposite of the yearlong tradition which then would kill all the fun. What the fun is? It's the magic moment of the opening of a direct clash between two programmers or less funny of their operators. The same thing, Bob, you must have gone through too. It's somehow the fantasy of a very human fight and not one of machines. Although they stand behind it. They even dominate it but the guys save their very personal superiority of man.

Just try to remember yourself. Please give us a report how you enjoyed the first ACM weekends.

From about 1978 on, Ken Thompson and myself tried to convince the ACM/ICCA to go to an automated format. Everyone still had to show up in person to compete, but the operators were not needed to relay moves or clock information. It was doable back then, but the argument against it was "some of the commercial dedicated chess machines don't have a serial port and therefore can not communicate with an external machine to relay moves." That has pretty much gone by the wayside today, although there will always be one or two that claim they can't compete on an FICS-like platform. But only because they don't _want_ to compete...

Why this is not done today boggles the imagination.

[BubbaTough]

So, exactly what you proposed here again is exactly the opposite of the yearlong tradition which then would kill all the fun.

I am trying to follow what you are saying Rolf but having a hard time. Are you saying its only fun when you actually move pieces on a chess board? That is fine, but its still possible to broadcast the games...they do in human vs. human tournaments. What Hyatt recommends makes a lot of technological sense, but there are other ways.

I think Einstein would agree with me.

-Sam

[sje]

From about 1978 on, Ken Thompson and myself tried to convince the ACM/ICCA to go to an automated format. Everyone still had to show up in person to compete, but the operators were not needed to relay moves or clock information. It was doable back then, but the argument against it was "some of the commercial dedicated chess machines don't have a serial port and therefore can not communicate with an external machine to relay moves."

The mystery here is that since each commercial developer was using a regular personal computer for the development and maintenance of their program, why didn't' they just bring the personal computer with its standard serial port to the event? Alongside the dedicated commercial consumer version, the programs running on the PC could be verified to produce the same moves.

[bob]

So, exactly what you proposed here again is exactly the opposite of the yearlong tradition which then would kill all the fun.

I am trying to follow what you are saying Rolf but having a hard time. Are you saying its only fun when you actually move pieces on a chess board? That is fine, but its still possible to broadcast the games...they do in human vs. human tournaments. What Hyatt recommends makes a lot of technological sense, but there are other ways.

I think Einstein would agree with me.

-Sam

I have been doing these events since my first in 1976. The act of moving pieces and hitting the clock is *not* an attractive part of the process. It introduces random effects into the game (one side forgets to hit the clock, or has to go to the men's room and their program moves while they are gone, or a move is entered incorrectly, or the remaining clock time is entered incorrectly, or time gets low and stress goes up as you strive to make the moves as quickly and accurately as possible. I can do without that. I have, in fact, since the CCT-type events have been all done on ICC. Watching is far more fun than actually "operating". From years of experience.

[bob]

From about 1978 on, Ken Thompson and myself tried to convince the ACM/ICCA to go to an automated format. Everyone still had to show up in person to compete, but the operators were not needed to relay moves or clock information. It was doable back then, but the argument against it was "some of the commercial dedicated chess machines don't have a serial port and therefore can not communicate with an external machine to relay moves."

The mystery here is that since each commercial developer was using a regular personal computer for the development and maintenance of their program, why didn't' they just bring the personal computer with its standard serial port to the event? Alongside the dedicated commercial consumer version, the programs running on the PC could be verified to produce the same moves.

I'm actually not sure what they used. There was no personal computer for some of the chips they uses (ARM, etc). But you would assume they did have some sort of development system, although no doubt it was not as fast as the very fastest thing they could get their hands on...

But it seems it will never happen, even in today's world where most every PC has an ethernet connection built in...

[Rolf]

From about 1978 on, Ken Thompson and myself tried to convince the ACM/ICCA to go to an automated format. Everyone still had to show up in person to compete, but the operators were not needed to relay moves or clock information. It was doable back then, but the argument against it was "some of the commercial dedicated chess machines don't have a serial port and therefore can not communicate with an external machine to relay moves."

The mystery here is that since each commercial developer was using a regular personal computer for the development and maintenance of their program, why didn't' they just bring the personal computer with its standard serial port to the event? Alongside the dedicated commercial consumer version, the programs running on the PC could be verified to produce the same moves.

I agree with all of you. In fact I would also enjoy a direct transmission, but then I tried to imagine what some might feel.

Look, they run a tournament between human beings (accompanied by machines) but they dont want by all means be directed or dominated by machine tech in a handicapping way. Where is the human directive if everything is automatised?

Bob is interesting because more than once he speaks as if his machine and he were one, but then he tries to seperate his emotions although these are the main drive for the activities we are all in more or less.

Look, Steven, I met Jaap in1999, I reported this already, and I was struck by the loving and caring attitude he showed for someone completely unknown to him. He gave me all his support and help when I met his journals for the first time. He's a true idealist. Not a slight item of arrogance what so many title people excude. BTW a similar type of guy like Max Euwe who was even a step higher in the hierarchy of chess. Simply lovable people these two Dutch. Jaap guarantees that the machines dont have the last say. They should play chess, ok, but how it is organised is in our hands. Included a certain imperfection. At least for our generation.