You make the call..

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

As the FIDE TD, how do you arbitrate the result of this game?

Poll ended at Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:17 am

White Wins
1
2%
Black Wins
34
83%
Draw
6
15%
 
Total votes: 41

elpapa
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:27 pm
Location: Sweden
Full name: Patrik Karlsson

Re: You make the call..

Post by elpapa »

Evert wrote:
Joerg Oster wrote:I think rule 6.9 must be applied here.

It's commonly agreed that 2 knights alone cannot force a mate.
Hence the result must be draw.
Even KNNK is not a draw under FIDE rules. Although it cannot be forced, two knights can deliver mate.
And, like Graham said, it can sometimes be forced with other material on the board. This is mate in 4, for example:

[d]k7/4N3/1K6/8/3p4/3N4/8/8 w - - 0 1
Thanar
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:45 am

Re: You make the call..

Post by Thanar »

Fide Laws of Chess - Rule 6.9 "Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

The exception articles from the first sentence do not apply here (checkmate on the board, declared resignation, stalemate, dead position, draw by agreement).

So the game is lost by the white player unless black "cannot checkmate [the white] king by any possible series of legal moves."

But there is such a legal series of moves whereby black checkmates white. For example, after 1.Rxb7+: 1...Kxb7 2.Ka4 Nb4 3.Qa3 Nc2 4.Nd2 Ka6 5.Nb3 Nb6#

[d]8/8/kn6/8/K7/QN6/2n5/8 w - - 8 6
Therefore black wins.
User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 4889
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: You make the call..

Post by MikeB »

Now that's we're at 75%, I can thank you for not letting me down!

Yes, under FIDE rules, this is a black win since the rule states :

Fide Laws of Chess - Rule 6.9 "Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

USCF rules are different, and under USCF rules, this game is drawn. But good luck trying to find USCF rules online - USCF wants you to buy their rule book online.
Joerg Oster
Posts: 969
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:29 pm
Location: Germany
Full name: Jörg Oster

Re: You make the call..

Post by Joerg Oster »

Thanar wrote:Fide Laws of Chess - Rule 6.9 "Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

The exception articles from the first sentence do not apply here (checkmate on the board, declared resignation, stalemate, dead position, draw by agreement).

So the game is lost by the white player unless black "cannot checkmate [the white] king by any possible series of legal moves."

But there is such a legal series of moves whereby black checkmates white. For example, after 1.Rxb7+: 1...Kxb7 2.Ka4 Nb4 3.Qa3 Nc2 4.Nd2 Ka6 5.Nb3 Nb6#

[d]8/8/kn6/8/K7/QN6/2n5/8 w - - 8 6
Therefore black wins.
OK, convinced! :D
Jörg Oster
BrendanJNorman
Posts: 2583
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:43 am
Full name: Brendan J Norman

Re: You make the call..

Post by BrendanJNorman »

Graham Banks wrote:Win to black, as it is still possible to mate with two knights with other material on the board.
Highly unlikely of course, but that's the official line.
Graham is completely correct.

In fact, it is/would be extremely amateur (or sneaky) of the white player to claim a win based on "tablebases" after losing on time...a loss is a loss.

And with regard to the remaining material, all that needs to be demonstrated is that mate is possible, not that mate is able to be forced.

Therefore black wins because mate is theoretical possible (probability not being of importance).

This is a very basic rule and anybody even with a little experience playing online will have experienced its application hundreds of times.
Vikram
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:47 am
Location: India

Re: You make the call..

Post by Vikram »

This is loss for white
White didn't complete moves in time


Also I think till the time
white didn't press clock and he still can takeback his move but
ofcourse have to move with same piece
User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 4889
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: You make the call..

Post by MikeB »

Evert wrote:
MikeB wrote: White claimed he won since the position is a won position for white and he was able to demonstrate that with Gaviota tablebases ;>) , which were loaded on the TD laptop.
Six piece Gaviota tablebases?

Anyway, the flag fell, so white loses the game.
Don't take me literally, the little wink meant I was joking.
User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 4889
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: You make the call..

Post by MikeB »

Joerg Oster wrote:I think rule 6.9 must be applied here.

It's commonly agreed that 2 knights alone cannot force a mate.
Hence the result must be draw.
I would agree, but that's not what the FIDE rules says or follows.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10805
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: You make the call..

Post by Uri Blass »

MikeB wrote:Now that's we're at 75%, I can thank you for not letting me down!

Yes, under FIDE rules, this is a black win since the rule states :

Fide Laws of Chess - Rule 6.9 "Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

USCF rules are different, and under USCF rules, this game is drawn. But good luck trying to find USCF rules online - USCF wants you to buy their rule book online.

I do not know the USCF rules but it is a win for black even if black need to be able to get a forced mate in 4 by a possible series of legal moves because you can get the following position by a series of legal moves.
[d]K7/3n4/2k5/8/8/8/8/5n1N b - - 0 1

[pgn]
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "URIBLASS-THINK"]
[Date "2016.11.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "UriBlass"]
[Black "Stockfish_16110110_x64_modern"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2400"]
[Time "22:59:44"]
[WhiteElo "2400"]
[TimeControl "6000+910"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2n5/kp5R/n7/8/2N5/K1Q5/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Rxb7+ Kxb7 2. Ka4 Kc7 3. Ka5 Nc5 4. Nd2 Kc6 5. Qh3 Nd7 6. Ka6 Nd6 7. Nf1
Ne4 8. Ng3 Nd2 9. Nh1 Nc5+ 10. Ka7 Nd7 11. Ka8 Kc7 12. Qf1 Kc6 13. Ng3 Nxf1
14. Nh1 *[/pgn]
rabbits23
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:57 am
Location: Randwick Australia

Re: You make the call..

Post by rabbits23 »

Rules are rule.Black won Next time White should watch the time more closely and plan more carefully.
Allan