What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

@Andreas: well, already 32...Nf6, letting the rook loose is a huge mistake

All other moves are also losing.
Believe me, I am a experienced correspondence chess player and I know how to analyze such positions with different engines.
Show me your drawing line(s) after 31.Bd6 and I show you the refutation.

Andreas

well, I can not analyse 10 different positions at 10 different times, that is simply beyond my physical ability.

as the simple B vs N endgame is the best black continuation, but also the most relevant line, it is much better to fully concentrate on it instead.

can you prove black loses that simple endgame, either with engine analysis, or human insight?

because, I can prove black draws in all lines, and I have already started doing that.

as said, engines completely misunedrstand that posisiton, as the best moves invariably have to do with arising fortresses.

as said, black plan is to play g7-g6, followed by f7-f5.

about only drawing plan, but completely sufficient.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

many engine matches have confirmed the position is much more drawn as otherwise, please see relevant post.

More nonsense. Today I posted 5 serious games, all won by white. Together with Michael's games that gives an 8-0 score in serious games. Naturally, you "forgot" about those.

Of course admitting that the ending is indeed lost for black, completely destroys your first claim that "11.a3 is bad and 11.c5 is much better". Therefore you do your utmost best to declare a very bad and probably lost ending "drawn". All means allowed. Counter arguments ignored.

Today I offered you a helping hand in 2 postings. Now I know this is in vain. You simply want to be stupid. So be it.

the RB vs RN eg is already completely irrelevant, although still a draw with perfect play.

as said, exchanging rooks, getting to the B vs N eg, is much more forced, simple and relevant line now.

and it is a draw. black's plan involves playing g7-g6, followed by f7-f5.

about only drawing plan, but completely sufficient.

I am certain Carlsen would never have missed it.

In any case, I feel flattered I chose the same continuation as Carlsen.

[chessmobile]

a3 is weak, as both Ba3 and Bd6 in reply seemingly lead to a draw.
Carlsen made some mistakes tactically, to lose the game afterwards.

best moves is obviously c5, suggested by both SF and Komodo, and after e5 a3 Bc3 Bc3 e4 Nd2 Nf8, white has seemingly only not-losing, but very strong move, Re1(defending the e3 pawn and preparing either f2-f3 or f2-f4, otherwise white can not get rid of the nasty clamp in the form of the e4,e3,f2,g2 pawns, and will necessarily lose in due time) Bg4 f3 ef3 gf3 Bh5 Qe2:

[d]r2r1nk1/1p2qppp/p1p2n2/2Pp3b/3P4/PPB1PP2/2BNQ2P/R3R1K1 b - - 0 8

and, although SF shows some black edge here, white has excellent winning chances, but game should probably still end with a draw with perfect play.

SF will see white is much better on another 10-20 moves, of course...

instead, in both SF and Komodo's choice of this line, avoiding to play f3 or f4, white should lose.

[d]r1br1nk1/1p2qppp/p1p2n2/2Pp4/3Pp3/PPB1P3/2BN1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 5

only choice for white is to play here Re1, otherwise white loses by force.

Have you at least changed your verdict on the merits of a3 over c5? I would like to know how an engine shoot out at respectable time control from the c5 move. If the imperical evidence shows a3 leads to better score than c5 then it would be good to admit it.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Missed Michael's posting, so it is currently 11-0 in serious games. Three games added played with 26... Rb8.

It looks, though, that 26... Rb8 is indeed the best try. Not trading rooks appears to simply lose and also rather quickly.

I will be only concinced when score reaches 100-0.

[Jeroen]

Thanks, Michael! Incredible, that black can lose this position so quickly. Although the rook exchange surely must help black, it still seems very difficult to hold the ending.

In the meantime I played this one on my Quad this morning. Another quick white win by SF over Houdini:

[pgn][Event "Rapid 60m"]
[Site "Chess"]
[Date "2017.06.17"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish 260517 64 POPCNT"]
[Black "Houdini 5.01 x64-popc"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D45"]
[Annotator "1.55;1.53"]
[PlyCount "89"]
[TimeControl "3600"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 a6 6. b3
Bb4 7. Bd2 Nbd7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. O-O Qe7 10. Bc2 Rd8 11. a3 Bxa3 12. Rxa3 Qxa3 13.
c5 Ne4 14. Bxe4 dxe4 15. Ng5 h6 16. Ngxe4 a5 17. Qc2 a4 18. bxa4 Qb4 19. Nd6
Qa5 20. Nd5 Qxa4 21. Ne7+ Kf8 22. Qxa4 Rxa4 23. Nexc8 Ra8 24. Rb1 Rdxc8 25.
Nxc8 Rxc8 26. Rxb7 Rb8 27. Rxb8+ Nxb8 {Both last book move} 28. Kf1 {1.55/42
198} f6 {1.53/32 284 (Nd7)} 29. Ke2 {1.62/41 67} Nd7 {1.50/32 93} 30. Ba5 {
1.62/42 19} Kf7 {1.56/35 118 (h5)} 31. Kd3 {1.70/40 71} g5 {1.60/33 108} 32.
Bc7 {1.78/39 20 (Kc4)} h5 {1.68/36 122} 33. Kc4 {1.96/43 95} Ke8 {1.79/37 125
(Nf8)} 34. Bd6 {2.52/41 62 (e4)} f5 {1.85/36 100} 35. f3 {2.61/41 20 (Kd3)} Nf6
{2.70/36 339} 36. Be5 {2.95/40 67} Nd5 {2.77/38 127} 37. Kd3 {3.22/41 70} g4 {
2.84/31 24 (Nb4+)} 38. fxg4 {4.93/48 231 (Bd6)} hxg4 {3.62/36 160} 39. e4 {
5.28/41 48} Ne7 {4.50/34 147} 40. Ke3 {5.47/36 15} Ng6 {5.71/36 238} 41. h3 {
5.59/54 46} gxh3 {6.17/39 143 (fxe4)} 42. gxh3 {6.77/42 51} Kf8 {6.97/35 110
(Kf7)} 43. exf5 {9.36/42 140} exf5 {7.54/32 95} 44. Bd6+ {10.12/37 65} Kf7 {
8.19/36 80} 45. Kf3 {10.22/36 14} 1-0[/pgn]

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

now white was failing high big time on just the 8th move from the position:

current pos: [d]5k2/5pp1/2p1p3/1nP3B1/3P3p/3KPP2/6PP/8 b - - 1 35 after the move below

Code: Select all

dep	score	nodes	time	(not shown:  tbhits	knps	seldep)
 49	+3.82 	6.13G	3:18.72	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 e4 Ke7 h4 g6 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kd3 Na7 Kc4 Kd7 Be3 Nb5 Bc1 Nc7 Bh6 Ne8 Bd2 Nc7 Bc3 f5 Bd2 Ne8 Bg5 Nc7 Bf6 Nb5 Be5 fxe4 fxe4 Na3+ Kb3 Nb5 Kb4 Na7 Bg7 Nb5 Kc4 Na3+ Kd3 Kc7 Bh6 Nb5 Bc1 Kd7 Kc4 e5 d5 Nd4 Bb2 N 
 49	+3.82 	6.13G	3:18.72	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 e4 Ke7 h4 g6 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kd3 Na7 Kc4 Kd7 Be3 Nb5 Bc1 Nc7 Bh6 Ne8 Bd2 Nc7 Bc3 f5 Bd2 Ne8 Bg5 Nc7 Bf6 Nb5 Be5 fxe4 fxe4 Na3+ Kb3 Nb5 Kb4 Na7 Bg7 Nb5 Kc4 Na3+ Kd3 Kc7 Bh6 Nb5 Bc1 Kd7 Kc4 e5 d5 Nd4 Bb2 N 
 49	+3.80!	6.12G	3:18.34	Bg5! 
 49	+3.64!	4.84G	2:36.14	Bg5! 
 49	+3.54!	3.25G	1:44.51	Bg5! 
 49	+3.46!	3.17G	1:41.86	Bg5! 
 48	+3.39 	2.38G	1:16.09	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 e4 Ke7 h4 g6 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kd3 Kd7 Be3 Ke7 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kb4 Kd7 Bf2 Nc7 Kc4 Kc8 Bg3 Ne8 Be1 Ng7 Bd2 Kd8 Bc3 Kd7 d5 Nh5 Bd4 exd5+ exd5 cxd5+ Kb5 Nf4 c6+ Kc8 Bxf6 Ne6 Be5 d4 Kc4 Nd8 Kd5 d3 Bf4 Nf7 
 48	+3.25!	1.87G	0:59.51	Bg5! 
 48	+3.14!	1.43G	0:45.30	Bg5! 
 48	+3.06?	1.38G	0:43.65	Bg5 h3? 
 47	+3.14 	937.0M	0:29.96	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd8 h4 g6 Bf4 Kd7 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kd3 Kc8 Be3 Kc7 Bc1 Kb7 Kc4 Nc7 Be3 Nb5 Bh6 Nc7 Bc1 Nb5 Bb2 Nc7 Bc3 Kc8 Bd2 Kd7 Bf4 Nb5 Be3 Na3+ Kb3 Nb5 Bf2 Kd8 Kc4 Na3+ Kb4 Nb5 d5 exd5 exd5 Nc7 dxc6 Ne6 K 
 47	+3.01!	733.3M	0:23.40	Bg5! 
 47	+2.99!	332.4M	0:10.72	Bg5! 
 47	+2.92?	314.8M	0:10.18	Bg5 h3? 
 46	+2.99 	304.7M	0:09.86	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 h4 g6 Kc4 Na3+ Kb3 Nb5 Be3 Kd8 Kc4 Kd7 Bc1 Nc7 Bb2 Kc8 Kb4 Kb7 Kb3 Kb8 Kc3 Kb7 Kb4 Kb8 Ba1 Kb7 Kc4 f5 Bb2 Ne8 Kd3 Kc7 Bc1 Nf6 Bf4+ Kd7 Bg5 Nh5 Kc4 fxe4 fxe4 Kc7 Kd3 Ng7 Bf4+ Kd7 
 45	+2.92 	287.9M	0:09.35	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd7 Bf4 Kc8 h4 g6 Be3 Kd7 Kc4 Na3+ Kb3 Nb5 Kb4 Kc8 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kb4 Kd7 Bf2 Nc7 Kc4 Ne8 d5 Ng7 Bd4 Nh5 d6 e5 Be3 Ng7 f4 Ne6 f5 gxf5 exf5 Ng7 Kd3 Nxf5 h5 Nxe3 Kxe3 Ke6 h6 
 44	+2.92 	24.1M  	0:00.73	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd7 h4 g6 Bf4 Na3 Bc1 Nb5 Kc4 Nc7 Bb2 Kc8 Kb4 f5 Kc4 Kd7 Bc1 Nb5 Bf4 Na3+ Kd3 Ke7 Be5 Kf7 Bd6 Kf6 Bg3 Kf7 Kc3 fxe4 fxe4 Nb5+ Kd3 Ke7 Bf4 Kd7 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Ke7 
 43	+2.92 	17.0M  	0:00.51	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd7 h4 g6 Bf4 Na3 Bc1 Nb5 Kc4 Nc7 Bf4 Ne8 Bd2 Nc7 Bc3 f5 Bb2 Ne8 Kd3 Ke7 Bc1 Kd7 Bg5 Nc7 Bf4 Nb5 Be5 fxe4+ fxe4 Na7 Bf4 Nb5 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Ke7 Be3 Kd7 Kd3 e5 d5 Nb5 d6 
 42	+2.92 	13.9M  	0:00.41	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd7 h4 g6 Bf4 Na3 Bc1 Nb5 Kc4 Nc7 Bf4 Ne8 Bd2 Nc7 Bc3 f5 Bb2 Ne8 Kd3 Ke7 Bc1 Kd7 Bg5 Nc7 Bf4 Nb5 Be5 fxe4+ fxe4 Na7 Bf4 Nb5 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Ke7 Be3 Kd7 Kd3 e5 d5 Nb5 

are you looking at what you are posting?

this output/variations are completely irrelevant.

obvious, you have managed to screw MacBrain beyond repair.

[MikeB]

now white was failing high big time on just the 8th move from the position:

current pos: [d]5k2/5pp1/2p1p3/1nP3B1/3P3p/3KPP2/6PP/8 b - - 1 35 after the move below

Code: Select all

dep	score	nodes	time	(not shown:  tbhits	knps	seldep)
 49	+3.82 	6.13G	3:18.72	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 e4 Ke7 h4 g6 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kd3 Na7 Kc4 Kd7 Be3 Nb5 Bc1 Nc7 Bh6 Ne8 Bd2 Nc7 Bc3 f5 Bd2 Ne8 Bg5 Nc7 Bf6 Nb5 Be5 fxe4 fxe4 Na3+ Kb3 Nb5 Kb4 Na7 Bg7 Nb5 Kc4 Na3+ Kd3 Kc7 Bh6 Nb5 Bc1 Kd7 Kc4 e5 d5 Nd4 Bb2 N 
 49	+3.82 	6.13G	3:18.72	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 e4 Ke7 h4 g6 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kd3 Na7 Kc4 Kd7 Be3 Nb5 Bc1 Nc7 Bh6 Ne8 Bd2 Nc7 Bc3 f5 Bd2 Ne8 Bg5 Nc7 Bf6 Nb5 Be5 fxe4 fxe4 Na3+ Kb3 Nb5 Kb4 Na7 Bg7 Nb5 Kc4 Na3+ Kd3 Kc7 Bh6 Nb5 Bc1 Kd7 Kc4 e5 d5 Nd4 Bb2 N 
 49	+3.80!	6.12G	3:18.34	Bg5! 
 49	+3.64!	4.84G	2:36.14	Bg5! 
 49	+3.54!	3.25G	1:44.51	Bg5! 
 49	+3.46!	3.17G	1:41.86	Bg5! 
 48	+3.39 	2.38G	1:16.09	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 e4 Ke7 h4 g6 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kd3 Kd7 Be3 Ke7 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kb4 Kd7 Bf2 Nc7 Kc4 Kc8 Bg3 Ne8 Be1 Ng7 Bd2 Kd8 Bc3 Kd7 d5 Nh5 Bd4 exd5+ exd5 cxd5+ Kb5 Nf4 c6+ Kc8 Bxf6 Ne6 Be5 d4 Kc4 Nd8 Kd5 d3 Bf4 Nf7 
 48	+3.25!	1.87G	0:59.51	Bg5! 
 48	+3.14!	1.43G	0:45.30	Bg5! 
 48	+3.06?	1.38G	0:43.65	Bg5 h3? 
 47	+3.14 	937.0M	0:29.96	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd8 h4 g6 Bf4 Kd7 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kd3 Kc8 Be3 Kc7 Bc1 Kb7 Kc4 Nc7 Be3 Nb5 Bh6 Nc7 Bc1 Nb5 Bb2 Nc7 Bc3 Kc8 Bd2 Kd7 Bf4 Nb5 Be3 Na3+ Kb3 Nb5 Bf2 Kd8 Kc4 Na3+ Kb4 Nb5 d5 exd5 exd5 Nc7 dxc6 Ne6 K 
 47	+3.01!	733.3M	0:23.40	Bg5! 
 47	+2.99!	332.4M	0:10.72	Bg5! 
 47	+2.92?	314.8M	0:10.18	Bg5 h3? 
 46	+2.99 	304.7M	0:09.86	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 h4 g6 Kc4 Na3+ Kb3 Nb5 Be3 Kd8 Kc4 Kd7 Bc1 Nc7 Bb2 Kc8 Kb4 Kb7 Kb3 Kb8 Kc3 Kb7 Kb4 Kb8 Ba1 Kb7 Kc4 f5 Bb2 Ne8 Kd3 Kc7 Bc1 Nf6 Bf4+ Kd7 Bg5 Nh5 Kc4 fxe4 fxe4 Kc7 Kd3 Ng7 Bf4+ Kd7 
 45	+2.92 	287.9M	0:09.35	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd7 Bf4 Kc8 h4 g6 Be3 Kd7 Kc4 Na3+ Kb3 Nb5 Kb4 Kc8 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Nb5+ Kb4 Kd7 Bf2 Nc7 Kc4 Ne8 d5 Ng7 Bd4 Nh5 d6 e5 Be3 Ng7 f4 Ne6 f5 gxf5 exf5 Ng7 Kd3 Nxf5 h5 Nxe3 Kxe3 Ke6 h6 
 44	+2.92 	24.1M  	0:00.73	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd7 h4 g6 Bf4 Na3 Bc1 Nb5 Kc4 Nc7 Bb2 Kc8 Kb4 f5 Kc4 Kd7 Bc1 Nb5 Bf4 Na3+ Kd3 Ke7 Be5 Kf7 Bd6 Kf6 Bg3 Kf7 Kc3 fxe4 fxe4 Nb5+ Kd3 Ke7 Bf4 Kd7 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Ke7 
 43	+2.92 	17.0M  	0:00.51	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd7 h4 g6 Bf4 Na3 Bc1 Nb5 Kc4 Nc7 Bf4 Ne8 Bd2 Nc7 Bc3 f5 Bb2 Ne8 Kd3 Ke7 Bc1 Kd7 Bg5 Nc7 Bf4 Nb5 Be5 fxe4+ fxe4 Na7 Bf4 Nb5 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Ke7 Be3 Kd7 Kd3 e5 d5 Nb5 d6 
 42	+2.92 	13.9M  	0:00.41	Bg5 h3 gxh3 f6 Bf4 Ke8 Bg3 Ke7 e4 Kd7 h4 g6 Bf4 Na3 Bc1 Nb5 Kc4 Nc7 Bf4 Ne8 Bd2 Nc7 Bc3 f5 Bb2 Ne8 Kd3 Ke7 Bc1 Kd7 Bg5 Nc7 Bf4 Nb5 Be5 fxe4+ fxe4 Na7 Bf4 Nb5 Kc4 Na3+ Kc3 Ke7 Be3 Kd7 Kd3 e5 d5 Nb5 

are you looking at what you are posting?

this output/variations are completely irrelevant.

obvious, you have managed to screw MacBrain beyond repair.

+1 lol

[IQ]

will be briefly back, for people not to say I have abandoned the forum, as well as my beliefs.

How could people ever say this? In many of the threads you participate in you sooner or later announce that you won't post again, but then post only minutes later. You are well known for these antics.

Also why would it bother you if people say that? Step back and really think about that, you might learn something about yourself. There is no shame in admitting a mistake, realizing ones limitations and moving on.

I am perfectly fine, john, please believe me, it is not possible to throw me off balance with such posts.

And yet you return.

I simply missed at first that black can trade rooks because of the mate threat on the first rank.

Yes first true statement. Players of your strength tend to miss these mate-in-one threats.

This time, I spent couple of hours analysing every single possible meaningful continuation, and, as expected there is draw everywhere. absoluetly everywhere. I checked and rechecked this, in at least 10 different continuations.

At least 10 different continuations... Wow! That must be a lot for you. Congrats for trying soooo hard.

however, black should proceed with a very stringent plan: when playing f5, the f5 pawn should be supported by a pawn on g6, to capture gf5 after ef5, otherwise black loses.

No he should not, this is one of the weaker defensive set-ups and looses. As you probably already fear, because you do not even provide any lines. I understand that for a player of your caliber move-orders do not matter but unfortunately they do.

this is the simple relevant continuation repeating in almost all lines, but it perfectly holds, no doubt Carlsen would have found it imediately, as I myself pick it on the spot as only alternative.

You and Carlsen, great minds think alike. Sure you would have picked it immediatly, but one moment didn't you say this

I simply missed at first that black can trade rooks because of the mate threat on the first rank.

Hmmm, strange concept of immediatly you have.

every other possible configuration, as said, might be losing at some point, but engines do not quite get that, choosing other moves.

And yet, many people on here have been telling you that in dozens of posts.

again, this is position engines do not understand, almost all of their moves are wrong, as only possible way to draw is going for a fortress.

Lyudmil, the only fortress here is your mind.

as said, in the simple one-piece endgame, black should first move g6, before pushing f5.

Simple for simple minded people.

My challenge still stands - why not play the position against me move-by-move and stand by your beliefs?

[Jeroen]

I received this game from a friend. Komodo loses in only 9 moves after 27.Rxb8 Nxb8. Amazing. For me, this is enough now on this subject.

My conclusion: Aronian's 11.a3! is the best move in the position and offers white excellent chances. Best answer is 11... Bd6, to keep a playable position. Too risky is 11... Bxa3? which leads to a clear advantage for white in all lines and black must avoid many pitfalls to lose quickly. I am looking forward to Aronian's annotation of this game!

[pgn][Event "Eindspel"]
[Site "Test-PC"]
[Date "2017.06.16"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish 8"]
[Black "Komodo 10.4"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D45"]
[Annotator "1.61;1.38"]
[PlyCount "71"]
[TimeControl "5400"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 a6 6. b3
Bb4 7. Bd2 Nbd7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. O-O Qe7 10. Bc2 Rd8 11. a3 Bxa3 12. Rxa3 Qxa3 13.
c5 Ne4 14. Bxe4 dxe4 15. Ng5 h6 16. Ngxe4 a5 17. Qc2 a4 18. bxa4 Qb4 19. Nd6
Qa5 20. Nd5 Qxa4 21. Ne7+ Kf8 22. Qxa4 Rxa4 23. Nexc8 Ra8 24. Rb1 Rdxc8 25.
Nxc8 Rxc8 26. Rxb7 Rb8 27. Rxb8+ Nxb8 {Both last book move} 28. Kf1 {1.61/42
290} f6 {1.38/34 126 (Nd7)} 29. Ke2 {1.61/44 162} e5 {1.60/34 93 (h5)} 30. Kd3
{2.14/43 81 (Bc3)} Ke7 {1.97/37 254} 31. g4 {2.39/46 166 (Bc3)} g5 {2.27/39
304 (exd4)} 32. Kc4 {4.37/40 87} Kd7 {3.71/37 83 (Ke6)} 33. Ba5 {5.04/42 120}
exd4 {4.18/43 246 (Ke7)} 34. exd4 {6.37/41 75} Kc8 {5.23/44 223} 35. d5 {
10.81/45 204 (Bc3)} Nd7 {6.76/44 131} 36. Bc3 {11.33/37 40 adjud.} 1-0[/pgn]

[yanquis1972]

apologies for switching positions again, but i am beginning to think the core issue is that lyudmil is incorrect or overly optimistic about what constitutes a fortress. i don't mean that as an insult, given that i don't really know what a fortress is.

[d]4k3/6B1/2p1p3/2P2p1p/3PnP2/4PK2/6PP/8 w - -

you say this is a simple fortress draw, but i don't believe engine - engine play (at least with only 5-man TBs) would confirm it as such (maybe at very long time control; ie not simple...although this is only my suspicion; i'm just now running a 15min game)...there is no question the computer fumbles around (making it all the more difficult for me to comprehend whats going on) but how does black draw? how can it be a fortress when the king & minor piece remain at very least potentially active? most baffling to me is the pawn break with h3 & g4; i gather it doesn't work immediately, but it seems to be a serious threat...

i will post a couple games shortly; the first i forgot to turn resign off, but the eval was near +10. the second just started & is quite different as the knight re-established itself on d5 instead of e4...which i assume is a blunder since white now threatens e4 as well. so perhaps 3 games...