Positional draw?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I go with your line here: 41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7, and then on move 54 I play Rg2, followed by Rg3, blocking the g4 pawn; then the white king goes to c3 and just moves from c3 to b2 and back.

I do not know what is so difficult to understand.

That's not difficult to understand at all, Lyudmil, because of the line with move- numbers, even if that was my one and the moves of yours to be continued but one are missing them again, that could be because they have no moves for the black side to count.



Well, to show my will to serve, for the very last time I will react to a single move from you and a plan instead of a line.
If I may translate your plan to a line of mine accordingly:

54. Rg2 Kb6 55. Rg3 Ka5 56. Ke3 Kb4
[d]7r/8/3p1p2/2p2P1p/1kP1P1pP/rB1PK1R1/P7/8 w - - 0 57

Oops, Lyudmil, your plan isn't to be played, your King is too slow, what now?

Man, can not you transpose a bit: 55. Ke3 instead of Rg3, and only after that Rg3?

But that is not important, as the whole line is very far from optimal for both sides.

And what does transposition change as for the position in the end of the line?
I thought if some moves transpose to each other, that means leading to the same position in different move- orders, no?

And if you didn't like the line, why did you follow it to prove me your in this transposed or not transposed own moves already refuted draw?


Lyudmil, my offer for the one or the other corr.- game with TC and medium of youre choice (if you send me a private message, we can play on by that means, or I'll give you my email- adress) is still standing, well understood: offline medium, as corr. always has to be, no matter if "blitz- corr." or long TC.

I really don't want to go on staying online here just not to miss any of your great postings.

So send me pm if you want to play or leave me alone in Louis' thread.

Peter, I think you are the craziest person on this forum...after me.

Obviously, everything changes, as after Ke3 Kb6 Kd2 Ka5 Kc3 the white king is just on time to control the b4 square.

[peter]

I go with your line here: 41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7, and then on move 54 I play Rg2, followed by Rg3, blocking the g4 pawn; then the white king goes to c3 and just moves from c3 to b2 and back.

I do not know what is so difficult to understand.

That's not difficult to understand at all, Lyudmil, because of the line with move- numbers, even if that was my one and the moves of yours to be continued but one are missing them again, that could be because they have no moves for the black side to count.



Well, to show my will to serve, for the very last time I will react to a single move from you and a plan instead of a line.
If I may translate your plan to a line of mine accordingly:

54. Rg2 Kb6 55. Rg3 Ka5 56. Ke3 Kb4
[d]7r/8/3p1p2/2p2P1p/1kP1P1pP/rB1PK1R1/P7/8 w - - 0 57

Oops, Lyudmil, your plan isn't to be played, your King is too slow, what now?

Man, can not you transpose a bit: 55. Ke3 instead of Rg3, and only after that Rg3?

But that is not important, as the whole line is very far from optimal for both sides.

And what does transposition change as for the position in the end of the line?
I thought if some moves transpose to each other, that means leading to the same position in different move- orders, no?

And if you didn't like the line, why did you follow it to prove me your in this transposed or not transposed own moves already refuted draw?


Lyudmil, my offer for the one or the other corr.- game with TC and medium of youre choice (if you send me a private message, we can play on by that means, or I'll give you my email- adress) is still standing, well understood: offline medium, as corr. always has to be, no matter if "blitz- corr." or long TC.

I really don't want to go on staying online here just not to miss any of your great postings.

So send me pm if you want to play or leave me alone in Louis' thread.

Peter, I think you are the craziest person on this forum...after me.

Obviously, everything changes, as after Ke3 Kb6 Kd2 Ka5 Kc3 the white king is just on time to control the b4 square.

So you go on trying it by all means not to have to admit you had already a lost position again yet, don't you?

You were just talking about transposing Ke3 and Rg3, now you simply leave away the move Rg3, which at the start was your great invention to stop black Pawn from ...g3.

Of course that changes something, but not the decision, you have to agonise with, if you go with your King to c3, or if you stop the black g-pawn to come to g3 by your move Rg3, you simply won't manage both of it in the line we are talking about, that's the good thing with lines in move- orders, you can transpose and you can leave moves away, but the one thing doesn't chage the end-positon and the other one does change the number of moves you need.

And that's the point and that already even you might have understood, Lyudmil, as crazy as you are.
Capiche?


BTW, I'm rather sure you've got it since quite a while, you just don't want to
admit it.

[peter]

I go with your line here: 41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7, and then on move 54 I play Rg2, followed by Rg3, blocking the g4 pawn; then the white king goes to c3 and just moves from c3 to b2 and back.

I do not know what is so difficult to understand.

That's not difficult to understand at all, Lyudmil, because of the line with move- numbers, even if that was my one and the moves of yours to be continued but one are missing them again, that could be because they have no moves for the black side to count.



Well, to show my will to serve, for the very last time I will react to a single move from you and a plan instead of a line.
If I may translate your plan to a line of mine accordingly:

54. Rg2 Kb6 55. Rg3 Ka5 56. Ke3 Kb4
[d]7r/8/3p1p2/2p2P1p/1kP1P1pP/rB1PK1R1/P7/8 w - - 0 57

Oops, Lyudmil, your plan isn't to be played, your King is too slow, what now?

Man, can not you transpose a bit: 55. Ke3 instead of Rg3, and only after that Rg3?

But that is not important, as the whole line is very far from optimal for both sides.

And what does transposition change as for the position in the end of the line?
I thought if some moves transpose to each other, that means leading to the same position in different move- orders, no?

And if you didn't like the line, why did you follow it to prove me your in this transposed or not transposed own moves already refuted draw?


Lyudmil, my offer for the one or the other corr.- game with TC and medium of youre choice (if you send me a private message, we can play on by that means, or I'll give you my email- adress) is still standing, well understood: offline medium, as corr. always has to be, no matter if "blitz- corr." or long TC.

I really don't want to go on staying online here just not to miss any of your great postings.

So send me pm if you want to play or leave me alone in Louis' thread.

Peter, I think you are the craziest person on this forum...after me.

Obviously, everything changes, as after Ke3 Kb6 Kd2 Ka5 Kc3 the white king is just on time to control the b4 square.

So you go on trying it by all means not to have to admit you had already a lost position again yet, don't you?

You were just talking about transposing Ke3 and Rg3, now you simply leave away the move Rg3, which at the start was your great invention to stop black Pawn from ...g3.

Of course that changes something, but not the decision, you have to agonise with, if you go with your King to c3, or if you stop the black g-pawn to come to g3 by your move Rg3, you simply won't manage both of it in the line we are talking about, that's the good thing with lines in move- orders, you can transpose and you can leave moves away, but the one thing doesn't chage the end-positon and the other one does change the number of moves you need.
And the dirtiest trick you now try is this: you simply steal a ply by starting your new "line" with Ke3 Kb6, but Kb6 I had already done after your first and only move with a number, your 54.Tg2, you remember?
So it would correctly be 54.Rg2 Kb6 55.Ke3 Ka5 56. Kd2 Kb4, and you still don't get with your King to the desired c3- square.
Capiche?

And that's the point and that already even you might have understood, Lyudmil, as crazy as you are.


BTW, I'm rather sure you've got it since quite a while, you just don't want to
admit it.

[zullil]

But more relevant than such: is there any doubt that the position at the end of the line is clearly won for Black?

[d]8/1r6/3p1p2/k1p2P1p/2P1P1pP/rB1PK3/PR6/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 120415 64 POPCNT:

61.Rb1 g3 62.Rg1 Rg7 63.Bd1 Rxa2 64.Bxh5 Rh2 65.Bg6 Rxh4 66.Kf3 Rh2 67.Rb1 g2 68.Kg3 g1R+ 69.Rxg1 Rd2 70.Kf4 Rxd3 71.Rb1 Rd4 72.Rb5+ Ka4 73.Rb8 Rxc4 74.Rf8 d5 75.Rxf6 Rxe4+ 76.Kg5 d4 77.Rd6 Re2 78.Kh6 Rc7 79.f6 Rf2 80.Kg5 Kb3 81.Kg4 Rf1 82.Bd3 Rg1+ 83.Kf5 c4 84.Be4 d3 85.Rd8 Rf1+ 86.Ke5 Rf2 87.Bg6 d2
-+ (-3.63) Depth: 43/64 00:04:34 5087MN, tb=2189713

Deep analysis from SF:

Code: Select all

info depth 50 seldepth 85 multipv 1 score cp -356 nodes 210237584175 nps 27600046 hashfull 999 tbhits 175249135 time 7617291 pv d3d4 a5b4 b2d2 b7g7 d4c5 g4g3 e3f3 d6c5 f3g2 g7g4 d2d6 g4h4 d6f6 h4e4 g2g3 h5h4 g3f2 a3a8 f2f3 e4d4 f6g6 b4c3 g6g5 a8f8 b3a4 c3c4 f3e3 d4d3 e3f4 c4d5 a4c2 d3d2 c2b1 c5c4 f4e3 d2d1 f5f6 d5e6 b1c2 d1h1 g5h5 f8f6 a2a4 h1h3 e3d4 f6f4 c2e4 h3a3 a4a5 e6f6 h5c5 h4h3 d4d5 h3h2 c5c6 f6g5 c6g6 g5h5

info depth 51 seldepth 96 multipv 1 score cp -382 nodes 518894325308 nps 27815466 hashfull 999 tbhits 484557970 time 18654885 pv d3d4 a5b4 d4c5 b4c5 e3f2 b7g7 f2g3 g7e7 b2e2 a3a8 g3f4 a8g8 e2e1 g4g3 b3d1 g3g2 e1g1 c5d4 d1f3 e7a7 f3h5 a7a2 h5g6 g8b8 f4g3 b8b3 g3h2 d4e4 c4c5 d6d5 h4h5 a2a3 c5c6 d5d4 c6c7 b3h3 h2g2 h3c3 g1e1 e4f4 e1f1 f4g5 f1d1 c3c7 d1d2 c7c3 g6f7 c3g3 g2f2 a3d3 f7e6 d3d2 f2g3 g5h5 g3f3 h5g5 f3e4 d2e2 e4d3 e2e3 d3d2 e3a3

[zullil]

But more relevant than such: is there any doubt that the position at the end of the line is clearly won for Black?

[d]8/1r6/3p1p2/k1p2P1p/2P1P1pP/rB1PK3/PR6/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 120415 64 POPCNT:

61.Rb1 g3 62.Rg1 Rg7 63.Bd1 Rxa2 64.Bxh5 Rh2 65.Bg6 Rxh4 66.Kf3 Rh2 67.Rb1 g2 68.Kg3 g1R+ 69.Rxg1 Rd2 70.Kf4 Rxd3 71.Rb1 Rd4 72.Rb5+ Ka4 73.Rb8 Rxc4 74.Rf8 d5 75.Rxf6 Rxe4+ 76.Kg5 d4 77.Rd6 Re2 78.Kh6 Rc7 79.f6 Rf2 80.Kg5 Kb3 81.Kg4 Rf1 82.Bd3 Rg1+ 83.Kf5 c4 84.Be4 d3 85.Rd8 Rf1+ 86.Ke5 Rf2 87.Bg6 d2
-+ (-3.63) Depth: 43/64 00:04:34 5087MN, tb=2189713

While it certainly seems Black wins here, I'm surprised how long it is taking SF---with a 16 GB hash and some "forward and backward" analysis---to show a score of at least 500 cp (for Black) for the position above. Maybe, Peter, you are more experienced at how to milk such results from SF.

[Robert Flesher]

I go with your line here: 41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7, and then on move 54 I play Rg2, followed by Rg3, blocking the g4 pawn; then the white king goes to c3 and just moves from c3 to b2 and back.

I do not know what is so difficult to understand.

That's not difficult to understand at all, Lyudmil, because of the line with move- numbers, even if that was my one and the moves of yours to be continued but one are missing them again, that could be because they have no moves for the black side to count.



Well, to show my will to serve, for the very last time I will react to a single move from you and a plan instead of a line.
If I may translate your plan to a line of mine accordingly:

54. Rg2 Kb6 55. Rg3 Ka5 56. Ke3 Kb4
[d]7r/8/3p1p2/2p2P1p/1kP1P1pP/rB1PK1R1/P7/8 w - - 0 57

Oops, Lyudmil, your plan isn't to be played, your King is too slow, what now?

Man, can not you transpose a bit: 55. Ke3 instead of Rg3, and only after that Rg3?

But that is not important, as the whole line is very far from optimal for both sides.

And what does transposition change as for the position in the end of the line?
I thought if some moves transpose to each other, that means leading to the same position in different move- orders, no?

And if you didn't like the line, why did you follow it to prove me your in this transposed or not transposed own moves already refuted draw?


Lyudmil, my offer for the one or the other corr.- game with TC and medium of youre choice (if you send me a private message, we can play on by that means, or I'll give you my email- adress) is still standing, well understood: offline medium, as corr. always has to be, no matter if "blitz- corr." or long TC.

I really don't want to go on staying online here just not to miss any of your great postings.

So send me pm if you want to play or leave me alone in Louis' thread.

Peter, I think you are the craziest person on this forum...after me.

Obviously, everything changes, as after Ke3 Kb6 Kd2 Ka5 Kc3 the white king is just on time to control the b4 square.

So you go on trying it by all means not to have to admit you had already a lost position again yet, don't you?

You were just talking about transposing Ke3 and Rg3, now you simply leave away the move Rg3, which at the start was your great invention to stop black Pawn from ...g3.

Of course that changes something, but not the decision, you have to agonise with, if you go with your King to c3, or if you stop the black g-pawn to come to g3 by your move Rg3, you simply won't manage both of it in the line we are talking about, that's the good thing with lines in move- orders, you can transpose and you can leave moves away, but the one thing doesn't chage the end-positon and the other one does change the number of moves you need.
And the dirtiest trick you now try is this: you simply steal a ply by starting your new "line" with Ke3 Kb6, but Kb6 I had already done after your first and only move with a number, your 54.Tg2, you remember?
So it would correctly be 54.Rg2 Kb6 55.Ke3 Ka5 56. Kd2 Kb4, and you still don't get with your King to the desired c3- square.
Capiche?

And that's the point and that already even you might have understood, Lyudmil, as crazy as you are.


BTW, I'm rather sure you've got it since quite a while, you just don't want to
admit it.

Peter, this made me laugh.

I am enjoying playing over your variations and reading your ever amusing prose. Keep it up!