Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

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bob
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Re: Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

Post by bob »

jdart wrote:I continue to have a bad feeling about the result, if not the process.

One of ICGA's core problems now is that maybe once it was representative of the community of people who are hands-on engaged with computer chess. But that ceased to be true quite a long time ago. How many in this forum are members? Then, it is not surprising that their tournaments don't reflect the full spectrum of computer chess activity. (I am not talking here about the clones of questionable legality but all the activity and innovation that hundreds of programmers have done in the past 10 years). And now the recent investigation and banning have turned off some who might have participated.

--Jon
You are mixing up cause and effect. ICGA events are less popular today for many reasons. Some history:

In the 70's, one had two ways to compete. ICGA WCCC and ACM events, or else playing in human tournaments (my programs have been members of USCF forever it seems).

Then computers got strong (1981 was a critical year, more in a second) and USCF event organizers were given the option of advertising with (NC) in USCF. (NC) meant, simply, "no computers allowed." One driving force behind this was my old program, Cray Blitz. Which had been invited to enter various tournaments for many years. Until 1981, when it jumped onto a Cray, and went to the Mississippi Closed Chess Championship and won the event with a perfect score. And created a sh**storm of protests. It wasn't a resident of Mississippi, the computer was in Minneapolis, etc. Never was raised previously. But that was a turning point. By 1985 or so, every tournament advertised in Chess Life was (NC).

Now we were down to just one way to compete, at the annual ACM events, or the WCCC events which were every 3 years back then. The last ACM event was held in 1994, just prior to the first Deep Blue vs Kasparov chess match. At that point in time, the ACM decided that computer chess was "near the end" of being solved, and stopped supporting the ACM tournaments. Now we were down to one event every 3 years.

At about that time, ICC (then ICS) came along and offered a way for everyone to compete online, no travel, and there were dozens of GM and IM players willing to play computers all day long. There was our "out". Play when we wanted, who we wanted, and we even started to organize online tournaments, some with humans and computers, some with just computers. At this point, the ACM events started to see a drop-off in attendance. ICS was cheaper (it was free at the time) and required no travel or time off from work.

The only thing holding the WCCC together at that point was the ICGA journal, and the (at that point) WCCC which had moved to an annual time schedule. There were still people that were developing new ideas and presenting them in the Journal. "derivative programmers" don't do that. So they have, for the most part, shunned WCCC events because (a) they did not want to share anything they had done; (b) they knew about rule 2, and sharing ideas would reveal they were using a derivative that would not be a legal participant.

So yes, participation has gone down. But primarily based on the cost of the event, the time required to play in the event, and the availablilty of online events at no cost, providing more opportunities to measure improvement than just once per year...
bob
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Re: Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

Post by bob »

Rebel wrote:
Don wrote:
jdart wrote:Ok, I will agree there are some vocal opponents who are not reasonable. But if I also oppose some of what ICGA has done, that does not mean I side with the most unreasonable opponents in all their unreasonableness.
And I'm not saying that you do. You seem like a reasonable person to me but I do think you have been persuaded by the constant negativity and unfair vilification of the ICGA and anyone perceived to be associated with it.

If you hear enough negative talk, the brain cannot separate it from fact and you start believing it. That is called propaganda and it works extremely well. It's the only way to get entire countries to go to war against other countries due to the will of some leader or leaders.
Does this logic apply to the 5 year long Rybka=Fruit campaign in CCC as well ?
What "campaign"??? The "campaign" to reverse-engineer Rybka 1.0 beta to prove it was derived from Fruit, contrary to the rules. You use inflammatory words like "campaign" when the correct term was simply "5 year investigation." Culminating in the letter YOU signed that caused the ICGA to formally investigate. Never forget YOU were a signatory on the letter that finally caused this to blow up... The rybka stuff had pretty well died away here until that was done.
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Don
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Re: Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

Post by Don »

jdart wrote:Just for the record, I was offended.

You are saying I am a nice guy, but .. basically you are also saying I am a dupe, someone who is so naive they need to be told "Don't believe everything you hear".
Which offense do you consider the greater one:

1. You have been victimized by a propaganda campaign.

2. You are part of a corrupt bad of thugs looking out only for your own interests.

Maybe it's just me, but I see offense 2 as being a far more serious and unfair attack.

I am not a child. I am capable of forming my own opinions. I don't dislike ICGA because somebody else told me to, or for malicious reasons; I dislike them for what they've done, for my own reasons. Levy, and a number of others, evidently do not see the slightest thing wrong, and they can go on feeling and believing that way. But I see it differently.

This issue really has divided the community, to the point where even discussion of it is fraught.

--Jon
K I Hyams
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Re: Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

Post by K I Hyams »

bob wrote:Never forget YOU were a signatory on the letter that finally caused this to blow up...
You need to be careful, if you make Ed feel more guilty about what he signed, he will over-compensate for it even more.

Edit: No, on second thoughts, you should be OK after all; Ed has already reached the level of maximum possible over-compensation.
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Rebel
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Re: Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

Post by Rebel »

K I Hyams wrote:
bob wrote:Never forget YOU were a signatory on the letter that finally caused this to blow up...
You need to be careful, if you make Ed feel more guilty about what he signed, he will over-compensate for it even more.

Edit: No, on second thoughts, you should be OK after all; Ed has already reached the level of maximum possible over-compensation.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something.
-- Plato
K I Hyams
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Re: Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

Post by K I Hyams »

Rebel wrote:
K I Hyams wrote:
bob wrote:Never forget YOU were a signatory on the letter that finally caused this to blow up...
You need to be careful, if you make Ed feel more guilty about what he signed, he will over-compensate for it even more.

Edit: No, on second thoughts, you should be OK after all; Ed has already reached the level of maximum possible over-compensation.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something.
-- Plato
Gentle teasing, Ed. Nevertheless, if you think about it, you might find a grain of truth embedded in the comment.
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Rebel
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Re: Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

Post by Rebel »

K I Hyams wrote:
Rebel wrote:
K I Hyams wrote:
bob wrote:Never forget YOU were a signatory on the letter that finally caused this to blow up...
You need to be careful, if you make Ed feel more guilty about what he signed, he will over-compensate for it even more.

Edit: No, on second thoughts, you should be OK after all; Ed has already reached the level of maximum possible over-compensation.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something.
-- Plato
Gentle teasing, Ed. Nevertheless, if you think about it, you might find a grain of truth embedded in the comment.
I have been quite transparent about my motives, the fact you don't take them at face value leads you into fantasy land.
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Rebel
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Re: Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

Post by Rebel »

bob wrote:
Rebel wrote:
Don wrote:
jdart wrote:Ok, I will agree there are some vocal opponents who are not reasonable. But if I also oppose some of what ICGA has done, that does not mean I side with the most unreasonable opponents in all their unreasonableness.
And I'm not saying that you do. You seem like a reasonable person to me but I do think you have been persuaded by the constant negativity and unfair vilification of the ICGA and anyone perceived to be associated with it.

If you hear enough negative talk, the brain cannot separate it from fact and you start believing it. That is called propaganda and it works extremely well. It's the only way to get entire countries to go to war against other countries due to the will of some leader or leaders.
Does this logic apply to the 5 year long Rybka=Fruit campaign in CCC as well ?
What "campaign"??? The "campaign" to reverse-engineer Rybka 1.0 beta to prove it was derived from Fruit, contrary to the rules. You use inflammatory words like "campaign" when the correct term was simply "5 year investigation." Culminating in the letter YOU signed that caused the ICGA to formally investigate. Never forget YOU were a signatory on the letter that finally caused this to blow up... The rybka stuff had pretty well died away here until that was done.
Some people are able to change their mind. Apparently you have a problem with that.
A Distel
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Re: Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

Post by A Distel »

Rebel wrote:
bob wrote:
Rebel wrote:
Don wrote:
jdart wrote:Ok, I will agree there are some vocal opponents who are not reasonable. But if I also oppose some of what ICGA has done, that does not mean I side with the most unreasonable opponents in all their unreasonableness.
And I'm not saying that you do. You seem like a reasonable person to me but I do think you have been persuaded by the constant negativity and unfair vilification of the ICGA and anyone perceived to be associated with it.

If you hear enough negative talk, the brain cannot separate it from fact and you start believing it. That is called propaganda and it works extremely well. It's the only way to get entire countries to go to war against other countries due to the will of some leader or leaders.
Does this logic apply to the 5 year long Rybka=Fruit campaign in CCC as well ?
What "campaign"??? The "campaign" to reverse-engineer Rybka 1.0 beta to prove it was derived from Fruit, contrary to the rules. You use inflammatory words like "campaign" when the correct term was simply "5 year investigation." Culminating in the letter YOU signed that caused the ICGA to formally investigate. Never forget YOU were a signatory on the letter that finally caused this to blow up... The rybka stuff had pretty well died away here until that was done.
Some people are able to change their mind. Apparently you have a problem with that.
Rebel,

Change your mind is meant to reveal the truth, not to create it, right Rebel?
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Rebel
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Re: Levy's interview on Chessbase about ICGA/rybka

Post by Rebel »

A Distel wrote:
Rebel wrote:
bob wrote:
Rebel wrote:
Don wrote:
jdart wrote:Ok, I will agree there are some vocal opponents who are not reasonable. But if I also oppose some of what ICGA has done, that does not mean I side with the most unreasonable opponents in all their unreasonableness.
And I'm not saying that you do. You seem like a reasonable person to me but I do think you have been persuaded by the constant negativity and unfair vilification of the ICGA and anyone perceived to be associated with it.

If you hear enough negative talk, the brain cannot separate it from fact and you start believing it. That is called propaganda and it works extremely well. It's the only way to get entire countries to go to war against other countries due to the will of some leader or leaders.
Does this logic apply to the 5 year long Rybka=Fruit campaign in CCC as well ?
What "campaign"??? The "campaign" to reverse-engineer Rybka 1.0 beta to prove it was derived from Fruit, contrary to the rules. You use inflammatory words like "campaign" when the correct term was simply "5 year investigation." Culminating in the letter YOU signed that caused the ICGA to formally investigate. Never forget YOU were a signatory on the letter that finally caused this to blow up... The rybka stuff had pretty well died away here until that was done.
Some people are able to change their mind. Apparently you have a problem with that.
Rebel,

Change your mind is meant to reveal the truth, not to create it, right Rebel?
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-- Arthur Schopenhauer