The Computer Chess Community

[BrendanJNorman]

Brendan, don't worry. We are all here due to almost psychiatric reasons, aside being nerds and socially useless persons. The fact that not a single female posts here shows us our real value. Take it easy.

Thanks Kai, this is brilliant insight. I'll take it into account.

[BrendanJNorman]

Brendan, don't worry. We are all here due to almost psychiatric reasons, aside being nerds and socially useless persons. The fact that not a single female posts here shows us our real value. Take it easy.

Kai, I always enjoy your posts, but I have to admit this one is now at the top of my enjoyment list. In fact, I'm still wiping spit off my monitor from when I first read it. Thank you for another brilliant insight!

Brendan, I thoroughly enjoy your posts too and have learned a lot from reading your thoughts about chess engines and how to adjust the various parameters to mimic some of the great masters' methods of play.

For what it's worth, I've been on the internet since 1986 (was manager of the Apple II roundtable and later for a brief time managed the religion roundtable on GEnie back in the day) and I've pretty much seen it all in terms of trolls and idiots as well as compadres and friends. Though I occasionally enjoy a blazing flame war, I haven't indulged myself by participating in one for many years and will resist the temptation right now to prod a fool or two in this thread... sure am tempted, though.

In any event, Brendan, instead of continuing to respond to guys pushing various buttons to see which ones aggravate you the most, I hope you'll just let the trolls wander back under their bridges and spend your valuable time writing about engines and parameters and chess strategy and tactics.

And Kai, your comment about the lack of females here on TalkChess motivates me to pass on a rumor I recently heard about a well-known political commentator, writer, and celebrity in Chile (as well as serious chess player) who apparently is giving consideration to a gender change operation. If this should occur, then perhaps we'll finally have a witty gal to swap spit with in various topics. Hope does indeed spring eternal.

Thanks Chet, I do appreciate your words.

With this thread, I'm done with talkchess since the forum has only been a negative influence on my life and I don't need it at all to enjoy playing around with engines.

If people are free to deliberately insult/attack others, I don't see what's the use of moderators at all.

I'll stick to my own stuff and will be posting a lot more on the site soon (been busy with offline biz here in China, but free in two days!).

[BrendanJNorman]

Don't mess with Brenda n J. Norman , he has moral superiority on his side !

deep.

[BrendanJNorman]

Brendan : This is clearly one complicated topic with a number of people holding
a wide variety of views on the subject.I don't think there can be any one 'correct" answer but if it's any comfort to you I agree with your line of argument wholeheartedly.
Allan

Thanks mate. Must be an Aussie thing.

[BrendanJNorman]

Brendan I find it interesting you claim to have purchased Houdini 5 and a few paragraphs later you trash it. With your belief that it is okay to steal engines because it's up to the programmers to deal with it I wouldn't be surprised if you stole Houdini 5.

Can you give me a DIRECT quote where I trashed Houdini?

I CAN give you a DIRECT quote where I said "I like Houdini (5)".

Do you work with Houdart? If not, why are you minding his business?

If you really want to give him a massage, ask him whether there was an order on the site from me.

Also ask Chessbase if there was an order of the Houdini 5 ChessBase version (I bought both).

You'll find that as a person blessed to be able to afford it (and by "blessed" I mean working 7 days a week with three companies at once), I bought both.

How dare you make baseless accusations calling me a thief, you piece of sh*t.

Here's some advice: Close your eyes and walk slowly when you cross the road tomorrow. You'll get a lovely surprise.

[hgm]

All I asked was that what is "stolen" and what is not stolen is made clear (if you expect to enjoy the privilege attacking those who use "stolen" engines).

You know how it is, in legal matters. The law is as clear as it can be, but even then there are many boundary cases where judges have to decide.

The general public can be expected to know that copying music, movies or computer programs is a criminal offence, though, and that chess engines are computer programs. The don't have to be part of any special "Chess Programming Community" to know this. If someone obtains Komodo, even if it is by buying it, and then starts to sell exact copies of it under the name Synapse, (adding a tiny program of his own that does nothing but hide the origial name), it does not require any specialist knowledge to know you are dealing with a shameless thief. And it doesn't need any special privilege to criticise the morals of people that don't care about this, and would buy (or download for free) the 'product' anyway.

[BrendanJNorman]

...does not require any specialist knowledge to know you are dealing with a shameless thief. And it doesn't need any special privilege to criticise the morals of people that don't care about this, and would buy (or download for free) the 'product' anyway.

Right.

But to label somebody a thief, and to expect newcomers to acknowledge them as a thief, one must present irrefutable evidence from a mutually recognized authority.

This is what a judge is, right?

For example, why should I (or any person who might find a "stolen" engine on Chess Owl, for example) take your word for it, especially if I don't know you from Adam?

If you want me (or anybody) to have any opinion about anything, especially one which is negative ( and especially to refer to a certain group as criminals), you need to present me with ample proof.

Your words simply aren't enough, we aren't living under an authoritarian regime where dissonance from the "group" opinion is enough for persecution (okay, I guess I'm in China lol).

To continue your judge analogy, if you present irrefutable evidence (not opinions) from a source widely known as an authority (people like Ed S, Bob H, Dan Corbit etc are fine) then I'll say "okay, screw those guys", but I don't just jump on the "follow the crowd and hang em high" bandwagon easily.

Otherwise, how am I to know what is true and what is B.S?

Should I consult threads like this:

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... f62d2b55d9

and this:

http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1957

and stop using Houdini?

Instead of patiently educating newcomers, you guys attack them and insist that they "should know" if they're moral/not supporting theives.

This is ridiculous considering how grey this area is.

I'm living in a country where this type of mentality destroyed their entire country and culture in the 1960s (the Chinese Cultural Revolution) and they're still showing the scars from it.

Interestingly, a few of the talkchess gentleman from Germany would have me hang the "criminals" high, without presenting me with proof either.

I'm supposed to just follow the crowd and hate somebody I know very little about.

Surely, you guys would know more than anyone how destructive this mentality can be?

Show me your evidence and I'll decide for myself.

Don't expect me to follow your "everybody knows" reasoning until doing so.

This is sensible and just.

I am happy to discuss/debate any of these topics, but when you attack me personally, it simply reveals an extremely low EQ and poor social skills.

Somebody mentioned that this topic was "done and dusted" before I "came along".

Good! Please refer me to the comprehensive newcomer guide you created as a result and I'll be out of your hair.

[Leto]

Brendan I find it interesting you claim to have purchased Houdini 5 and a few paragraphs later you trash it. With your belief that it is okay to steal engines because it's up to the programmers to deal with it I wouldn't be surprised if you stole Houdini 5.

Can you give me a DIRECT quote where I trashed Houdini?

I CAN give you a DIRECT quote where I said "I like Houdini (5)".

Do you work with Houdart? If not, why are you minding his business?

If you really want to give him a massage, ask him whether there was an order on the site from me.

Also ask Chessbase if there was an order of the Houdini 5 ChessBase version (I bought both).

You'll find that as a person blessed to be able to afford it (and by "blessed" I mean working 7 days a week with three companies at once), I bought both.

How dare you make baseless accusations calling me a thief, you piece of sh*t.

Here's some advice: Close your eyes and walk slowly when you cross the road tomorrow. You'll get a lovely surprise.

I notice you take things very personally, internet must be very stressful for you. So you want direct quotes where you trash Houdini? That's easy, it's in your very first post in this thread:

"- Houdini 1.0 was more or less proven to be a clone of Robbolito (even Richard Vida and Lance Perkins directly told Houdart to stop lying about it) "

That's a big lie. Houdini 1.0 was clearly stronger than Robbolito, therefore it was not a clone. As for Richard Vida he ran away when Houdart threatened to sue him for cloning Houdini.


"*Houdart has never admitted to cloning Robo, yet you guys worship Houdini (yes I know that it's very unique now, but would I be "immoral" If I preferred version 1.0?) "

Houdini isn't a clone, I doubt you actually know what a "clone" is. And there you go you claim to like Houdini 5 and yet a few moments later you claim to like Houdini 1 better which doesn't even make sense considering you are wrongly claiming Houdini 1 is a clone.

I don't believe at all that you purchased Houdini 5 twice. What's the email address you used to make your purchases?

[hgm]

But to label somebody a thief, and to expect newcomers to acknowledge them as a thief, one must present irrefutable evidence from a mutually recognized authority.

Not really. When I walk out of a record store, and and I see someone sneaking out after me, who asks me whether I want to buy a compact disk (this happened 30 years ago, OK?) that I just showed some interest in while browsing the shop, from him for about half the market price... I don't do business with that guy, because I know he has just shop-lifted that CD. I don't think "well, he has not yet been convicted for this by a real judge, and it is not up to me to judge him, and he offers something I want very cheaply, so let me buy it".

Laws are made so that common people can know what society considers acceptable behavior, and what is considered criminal. And in the large majority of cases it leaves very little doubt about it. Aiding and abetting criminals in most societies is a crime in itself, even if you are just aiding them in crimes they have not yet been convicted for!

If you don't want to take somebody's word for it, you can check for yourself. The warning in the Synapse thread against this engine went accompanied by a link to a discussion that substantiated the accusation: it mentioned that a certain version of Synapse would report identical output (scores, moves and node count) as another engine. Which would be irrefutable proof of that it must be a plain copy, as there is no way you could get identical node counts on every position by coincidence. If you still don't believe that on hear-say, you can run the engines yourself, and check if they are the same.

If someone on the street would offer you a bicycle for sale at a suspiciously low price, bolt cutters visibly sticking out of his backpack, and a bypasser would say to you: "watch out for this man, I just saw him cut the locks off that bike in the parking lot there"... Would you feel free to ignore that, just because the bypasser is not a judge, and you don't know him from Adam? "Who cares? It seems like a fine bicycle" somehow doesn't seem an acceptable response. If the guy warning you had been an undercover policeman, and saw you conclude the sale after his warning, there is a good chance he would slam hancuffs on both of you, for stealing and fencing.

[BrendanJNorman]

I notice you take things very personally, internet must be very stressful for you. So you want direct quotes where you trash Houdini? That's easy, it's in your very first post in this thread:

"- Houdini 1.0 was more or less proven to be a clone of Robbolito (even Richard Vida and Lance Perkins directly told Houdart to stop lying about it) "

That's a big lie. Houdini 1.0 was clearly stronger than Robbolito, therefore it was not a clone. As for Richard Vida he ran away when Houdart threatened to sue him for cloning Houdini.


"*Houdart has never admitted to cloning Robo, yet you guys worship Houdini (yes I know that it's very unique now, but would I be "immoral" If I preferred version 1.0?) "

Houdini isn't a clone, I doubt you actually know what a "clone" is. And there you go you claim to like Houdini 5 and yet a few moments later you claim to like Houdini 1 better which doesn't even make sense considering you are wrongly claiming Houdini 1 is a clone.

I don't believe at all that you purchased Houdini 5 twice. What's the email address you used to make your purchases?

The time to be polite has come and gone, I'm going to deal with this young lady however I see fit, yet I'll address the bolded parts only.

1. Yes. I take insults personally. Yes. I am the same in person as I am online. Thats why until I am insulted to the extreme, I am without exception polite to others online. I always assume we are face to face. This contrasts from you weasels and rats who hide your face, and throw insults remorselessly, yet in person (as I have witnessed on numerous occasions), this same internet Lion becomes a soft-spoken Mouse uttering the same old "you know it was all fun and games, right?" excuse. You lady-boys should form a team and be cheerleaders for the coward squad. Doesn't this site have a real name policy? Why haven't you been banned?

2. I think you need to check the definition of "trash". I hardly think saying that Houdini was allegedly a clone of Robbolito is trashing the engine - Robolitto seems like a fantastic engine. If I'd said Houdini was a clone of Ziggurat maybe that'd be trashing it. Besides, it wasn't me who said it. It was programmers with a lot more authority than both of us (assuming you're just the no-name loser I assume you to be, and not a sock-puppet account of some known person.)

3. So what are you saying? Houdart (hmm are you Houdart's sock puppet account?) thinks Critter is a clone of Houdini? This is getting ridiculous.

4. Maybe I don't know what a clone is, so why attack me for testing Synapze? Oh that's right...you and your online boyfriends are cowardly bullies.

5. While you're looking up "trash" in the dictionary (or looking in the mirror, which would achieve the same), look up the word "if" too. I believe I said "if I preferred Houdini 1.0". Adding the word "if" makes it a hypothetical scenario and thus, not based on reality - therefore, it's not an affirmative statement....i.e I DID NOT SAY I PREFER Houdini 1.0. Clear, Einstein?

6. Unless you are indeed Houdart's sock puppet account, what use would you have for my paypal email address? And why would I post it on a public forum? There are two possibilities here - I'll address both.

a) You are a lovestruck groupie, either very interested in Houdart, Houdini or "Who knows what else?" and/or very close to the Houdini camp, yet bravely hide so you can safely take pot shots from the darkness.

b) You ARE Houdart (which I'm starting to suspect now) but again, bravely hide behind a sock-puppet account.

I'm starting to get the image in my mind of a bunch of middle-aged, divorced, grumpy, embittered excuses for men, cursing the world from the depths of their mother's basement as they play with their computers endlessly.

Thankfully not all of the computer chess guys are like you.

P.S Next time mind your own business, poindexter.