60 games Komodo 5 against Top4 at 120m+3s

[Houdini]

Timo changed only the openings and now we see completely different results by Komodo 5:

Not at all, we see exactly the same kind of results. It's just two engines close in strength playing a short match. The result can be 4-2 or 2-4, it does not mean anything.

With all respect, but just like Larry you often jump to conclusions or make claims that ignore the basic variability of chess engines matches or rating list results.
Both of you often seek (usually incorrect) explanations for things that don't require explanations other than random variability.
For both of you the "+" and "-" error margin columns in rating lists appear to be some remote theoretical concept without any practical meaning.

It makes rational discussion very difficult.

Robert

[Sedat Canbaz]

Timo changed only the openings and now we see completely different results by Komodo 5:

Not at all, we see exactly the same kind of results. It's just two engines close in strength playing a short match. The result can be 4-2 or 2-4, it does not mean anything.

With all respect, but just like Larry you often jump to conclusions or make claims that ignore the basic variability of chess engines matches or rating list results.
Both of you often seek (usually incorrect) explanations for things that don't require explanations other than random variability.
For both of you the "+" and "-" error margin columns in rating lists appear to be some remote theoretical concept without any practical meaning.

It makes rational discussion very difficult.

Robert

Hello dear Robert,

First of all,
I dont claim that (in any conditions),Komodo 5 is stronger than Houdini 2.0c
And the current Timo's test does not prove that Komodo 5 is stronger than Houdini 2.0c

Second,
Still i did not purchased Komodo 5,but i have no patience for Komodo 5 MP
Really i wonder a lot about what would be the results of Komodo MP in SCCT

Third,
Relax...take it easy please and you are right that everything can happen in such short test
*To be sure 100 %, we need more games with slow time controls

And last,
I am BIG fan of your Houdini engine,but however my BIG congratulations to Larry and Don
Finely,now we see Komodo as a serious opponent against Houdini !



Best,
Sedat

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Timo changed only the openings and now we see completely different results by Komodo 5:

Not at all, we see exactly the same kind of results. It's just two engines close in strength playing a short match. The result can be 4-2 or 2-4, it does not mean anything.

With all respect, but just like Larry you often jump to conclusions or make claims that ignore the basic variability of chess engines matches or rating list results.
Both of you often seek (usually incorrect) explanations for things that don't require explanations other than random variability.
For both of you the "+" and "-" error margin columns in rating lists appear to be some remote theoretical concept without any practical meaning.

It makes rational discussion very difficult.

Robert

Unfortunately,not all people are naturally born statistical genius like yourself....

[Sedat Canbaz]

Timo changed only the openings and now we see completely different results by Komodo 5:

Not at all, we see exactly the same kind of results. It's just two engines close in strength playing a short match. The result can be 4-2 or 2-4, it does not mean anything.

With all respect, but just like Larry you often jump to conclusions or make claims that ignore the basic variability of chess engines matches or rating list results.
Both of you often seek (usually incorrect) explanations for things that don't require explanations other than random variability.
For both of you the "+" and "-" error margin columns in rating lists appear to be some remote theoretical concept without any practical meaning.

It makes rational discussion very difficult.

Robert

Unfortunately,not all people are naturally born statistical genius like yourself....

Dear Wael,

+1

Just i'd like to add,
I respect a lot Robert Houdart, just because he created one the strongest engines

As far as i know, Robert Houdart is new in Computer Chess
And i don't agree that Robert is my teacher and i am his student

Best Wishes,
Sedat

[Uri Blass]

Timo changed only the openings and now we see completely different results by Komodo 5:

Not at all, we see exactly the same kind of results. It's just two engines close in strength playing a short match. The result can be 4-2 or 2-4, it does not mean anything.

With all respect, but just like Larry you often jump to conclusions or make claims that ignore the basic variability of chess engines matches or rating list results.
Both of you often seek (usually incorrect) explanations for things that don't require explanations other than random variability.
For both of you the "+" and "-" error margin columns in rating lists appear to be some remote theoretical concept without any practical meaning.

It makes rational discussion very difficult.

Robert

I do not agree with you.

The fact that random variability is a possible explanation for something does not mean that it is the only possible explanation and I see nothing wrong with trying to check possible different explanations.

Based on looking at the games it seems that the time management of komodo is a possible explanation for relatively bad results of komodo(and something seems not logical in the time that Komodo used for moves).

It may explain only 10 elo difference relative to better time management but I see nothing illogical in discussing it.

It is also possible that Komodo has problems in the first positions in the noomen positions and I see no problem in suggesting this possibility.

[Houdini]

As far as i know, Robert Houdart is new in Computer Chess

Not that it's relevant for the discussion, but I've been following computer chess since about 1985, an interest triggered by Richard Lang's Psion Chess.

[Houdini]

The fact that random variability is a possible explanation for something does not mean that it is the only possible explanation and I see nothing wrong with trying to check possible different explanations.

Based on looking at the games it seems that the time management of komodo is a possible explanation for relatively bad results of komodo(and something seems not logical in the time that Komodo used for moves).

It may explain only 10 elo difference relative to better time management but I see nothing illogical in discussing it.

It is also possible that Komodo has problems in the first positions in the noomen positions and I see no problem in suggesting this possibility.

A lot of things are possible, but there's no way to make any rational claim if the random part is an order of magnitude larger than any other influence.

[Sedat Canbaz]

As far as i know, Robert Houdart is new in Computer Chess

Not that it's relevant for the discussion, but I've been following computer chess since about 1985, an interest triggered by Richard Lang's Psion Chess.

Oh..sorry, actually,there are a lot of relations with the current issue

You are claiming that you are always right,and who have different views than you,those views are wrong

Btw,I've just checked your registration date in TalkChess forum:
Joined: 15 Mar 2010

Just i am curious,
I wonder...where you have been before ?
Because,I found no any single posting by you (here or in any other Computerchess forums too?

Note also that i know very well too that if you are new in Talkchess forum
Then it does mean that you are new in Computerchess

But however Talkchess is a such place,
where mostly of the experienced programers are usually here since long time




Best,
Sedat

[lucasart]

Timo changed only the openings and now we see completely different results by Komodo 5:

Not at all, we see exactly the same kind of results. It's just two engines close in strength playing a short match. The result can be 4-2 or 2-4, it does not mean anything.

With all respect, but just like Larry you often jump to conclusions or make claims that ignore the basic variability of chess engines matches or rating list results.
Both of you often seek (usually incorrect) explanations for things that don't require explanations other than random variability.
For both of you the "+" and "-" error margin columns in rating lists appear to be some remote theoretical concept without any practical meaning.

It makes rational discussion very difficult.

Robert

Unfortunately,not all people are naturally born statistical genius like yourself....

Dear Wael,

+1

Just i'd like to add,
I respect a lot Robert Houdart, just because he created one the strongest engines

As far as i know, Robert Houdart is new in Computer Chess
And i don't agree that Robert is my teacher and i am his student

Best Wishes,
Sedat

You guys can argue as much as you want. But facts are facts. Facts are not democratic, and can't be voted in or out of existence. The fact is that Robert is right, and from a score of 6/4 after 10 games there is absolutely no conclusion that can be drawn.
Perhaps you should read again the post of Ed on his experience trying to remove a king safety feature with 2000 games testing. It happens to me all the time. Quite frustrating, but it's the hard reality.

[Sedat Canbaz]

You guys can argue as much as you want. But facts are facts. Facts are not democratic, and can't be voted in or out of existence. The fact is that Robert is right, and from a score of 6/4 after 10 games there is absolutely no conclusion that can be drawn.
Perhaps you should read again the post of Ed on his experience trying to remove a king safety feature with 2000 games testing. It happens to me all the time. Quite frustrating, but it's the hard reality.

I think you missed too to read my previous posting:

Hello dear Robert,

First of all,
I dont claim that (in any conditions),Komodo 5 is stronger than Houdini 2.0c
And the current Timo's test does not prove that Komodo 5 is stronger than Houdini 2.0c

Second,
Still i did not purchased Komodo 5,but i have no patience for Komodo 5 MP
Really i wonder a lot about what would be the results of Komodo MP in SCCT

Third,
Relax...take it easy please and you are right that everything can happen in such short test
*To be sure 100 %, we need more games with slow time controls

And last,
I am BIG fan of your Houdini engine,but however my BIG congratulations to Larry and Don
Finely,now we see Komodo as a serious opponent against Houdini !



Best,
Sedat