What a move 11.a3!! Aronian-Carlsen_Norway Chess 2017

[whereagles]

Well, a3 + sac gets style points.. c5 is just boring play. Style counts !! (though Levon's shirts are a bit lacking in that respect...)

[IQ]

indeed, a3 is a straightforward draw in 15 moves,

No it's not.

you see for yourselves pretty clearly that in the c5 line there tremendous variations with no complete certainty what will happen in the end.
the a3 line, on the other hand, hides just 2 or 3 main lines, that are pretty much exhausted after a while.

False.

why should I analyse a3 instead of going for all these beauties?

Because you could learn something. My challenge stands please play me to a draw after 36. Kf3 and do not keep stalling. Whenever you should just admit to your error you come with lame excuses (too busy, not interesting). I am disappointed in you.

[Jeroen]

After your "forced" draw positon we are talking about this line:
28.e4 Ra1+ 29.Ke2 Ra4 30.Kd3 f6 31.Rc7 Ra6 32.Bf4 e5 33.dxe5 Kd8 34.exf6 gxf6 35.Ke2 Nxc5

This looks awful for black after 36.Kf3. White has only one pawn island, black has three isolated pawns. 36... Ne6 37.Rh7 Ng5+ 38.Bxg5 hxg5 should be completely lost for black (SF says +2). No doubt white will manage to get two connected pawns on the K-side, winning.

Ergo: Lyudmil's "forced draw" is instead a "forced loss".

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

After your "forced" draw positon we are talking about this line:
28.e4 Ra1+ 29.Ke2 Ra4 30.Kd3 f6 31.Rc7 Ra6 32.Bf4 e5 33.dxe5 Kd8 34.exf6 gxf6 35.Ke2 Nxc5

This looks awful for black after 36.Kf3. White has only one pawn island, black has three isolated pawns. 36... Ne6 37.Rh7 Ng5+ 38.Bxg5 hxg5 should be completely lost for black (SF says +2). No doubt white will manage to get two connected pawns on the K-side, winning.

Ergo: Lyudmil's "forced draw" is instead a "forced loss".

do not talk bullshit.

you, Rybka forum members, seem to be way off on any standard of the game or ethics.

I was tolerating your bursts, until you already overdid it.

+200 cps was also the line posted by Andreas, but obvious fortress.

the line is a very simple and obvious draw.

everyone knows this.

I am not supposed to do your or Possioto's analysis, am I?

you do not post output, do not post diagrams, do not post any substantial analysis, but just empty claims.

if I want , and if spare the time, I can tottaly annihalate any possible claim by you, but I simply do not want to waste my time in pointless discussions.

that is why I did not respond to your book claims in the tournament section.

in another 25 years of chess development, you will understand.

you envy me very much for the fact, my analysis was more correct than that of Svidler and Aronian, right?
but that is a fact.

PS. sorry for the bit sharp overtones, but you really got me mad.
seeing the obvious truth and claiming the opposite is simply disgusting.

that is why I never visit the Rybka forum.

[yanquis1972]

iirc you called it a "tablebase draw" because you copypasted an entire pv as if it was forced or what would actually be played. i dismissed that hand out of hand because thats simply not how chess engines work.

the challenge to you was quite simple, if you could be bothered, but here is a diagram.
[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2017.06.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1br2k1/1p1n1ppp/p1p1pn2/2Pp4/3P4/qPN1PN2/2BB1PPP/3Q1RK1 b - -"]

1... Ne4 2. Bxe4 dxe4 3. Ng5 h6 4. Ngxe4 a5 5. Qc2 a4
6. bxa4 Qb4 7. Nd6 Qa5 8. Nd5 Qxa4 9. Qxa4 Rxa4 10. Ne7+
Kf8 11. Nexc8 Ra8 12. Rb1 Rdxc8 13. Nxc8 Rxc8 14. Rxb7 Ra8
15. Kf1 Ke7 16. e4 Ra1+ 17. Ke2 Ra4 18. Kd3 f6 19. Rc7 Ra6
20. Bf4 e5 21. dxe5 Kd8 22. exf6 gxf6 23. Ke2 Nxc5 *[/pgn]

roberto's challenge is to draw after Kf3 here

[yanquis1972]

btw, i do want to say that i somehow missed several posts, including your forced line (which i think the above position is based on), so i want to apologize there. it looks fair & i appreciate the effort, though still believe the draw claim is very optimistic.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

btw, i do want to say that i somehow missed several posts, including your forced line (which i think the above position is based on), so i want to apologize there. it looks fair & i appreciate the effort, though still believe the draw claim is very optimistic.

thanks for the input and diagram, john, I very much appreciate it.

in that way you make my life easier.

you must understand that I can not analyse everything and everywhere.

have to excuse myself, but I am really very busy right now, will post some feedback in the afternoon.

what concerns Kf3, I never analysed the whole line, the forced line ends just before white's e4, and, my preferred response on e4 is Kd8.

maybe you can post diagram and someone can analyse it, I would be very happy if someone really proves me wrong, very very happy indeed, but am very much afraid that is impossible, as the eg is simply drawn.

again, I expect from people to do some analysis, and not to expect everything from me.

[BrendanJNorman]

iirc you called it a "tablebase draw" because you copypasted an entire pv as if it was forced or what would actually be played. i dismissed that hand out of hand because thats simply not how chess engines work.

the challenge to you was quite simple, if you could be bothered, but here is a diagram.
[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2017.06.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1br2k1/1p1n1ppp/p1p1pn2/2Pp4/3P4/qPN1PN2/2BB1PPP/3Q1RK1 b - -"]

1... Ne4 2. Bxe4 dxe4 3. Ng5 h6 4. Ngxe4 a5 5. Qc2 a4
6. bxa4 Qb4 7. Nd6 Qa5 8. Nd5 Qxa4 9. Qxa4 Rxa4 10. Ne7+
Kf8 11. Nexc8 Ra8 12. Rb1 Rdxc8 13. Nxc8 Rxc8 14. Rxb7 Ra8
15. Kf1 Ke7 16. e4 Ra1+ 17. Ke2 Ra4 18. Kd3 f6 19. Rc7 Ra6
20. Bf4 e5 21. dxe5 Kd8 22. exf6 gxf6 23. Ke2 Nxc5 *[/pgn]

roberto's challenge is to draw after Kf3 here

Wow after seeing this position, I'd agree that white seems to be just winning (or very close to it).

Put this position in the hands of Kramnik or Karpov (in his prime) and even SF would have no chance.

Doesn't white just grab the entire kingside and promote one of the pawns there?

That black c-pawn is going nowhere.

I must note that personally, I wouldn't play the move 24.Kf3 owing to 24...Ne6 25.Rh7 Ng5 26.Bxg5 hxg5

This position should be winning, but its much tougher in the rook ending than with keeping the bishop on the board.

So I'd play 24.Rh7 and keep the bishop in the board (it can keep an eye on the c-pawn and if need be, shield the king from checks.)

It also controls the queening square of white's h-pawn which will be useful in some endings.

I think the computer values both moves more or less equally, but unless there's something very concrete (my computers is only a 2015 Macbook Pro), general principles say we should keep the bishop on.

[yanquis1972]

btw, i do want to say that i somehow missed several posts, including your forced line (which i think the above position is based on), so i want to apologize there. it looks fair & i appreciate the effort, though still believe the draw claim is very optimistic.

thanks for the input and diagram, john, I very much appreciate it.

in that way you make my life easier.

you must understand that I can not analyse everything and everywhere.

have to excuse myself, but I am really very busy right now, will post some feedback in the afternoon.

what concerns Kf3, I never analysed the whole line, the forced line ends just before white's e4, and, my preferred response on e4 is Kd8.

maybe you can post diagram and someone can analyse it, I would be very happy if someone really proves me wrong, very very happy indeed, but am very much afraid that is impossible, as the eg is simply drawn.

again, I expect from people to do some analysis, and not to expect everything from me.

this should be the game & position then, unless i made a mistake transposing the moves --

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2017.06.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[ECO "D46"]
[Result "*"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 a6 6. b3 Bb4
7. Bd2 Nbd7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. O-O Qe7 10. Bc2 Rd8 11. a3 Bxa3
12. Rxa3 Qxa3 13. c5 Ne4 14. Bxe4 dxe4 15. Ng5 h6 16. Ngxe4
a5 17. Qc2 a4 18. bxa4 Qb4 19. Nd6 Qa5 20. Nd5 Qxa4
21. Ne7+ Kf8 22. Qxa4 Rxa4 23. Nexc8 Ra8 24. Rb1 Rdxc8
25. Nxc8 Rxc8 26. Rxb7 Ra8 27. Kf1 Ke7 28. e4 Kd8 *[/pgn]

r2k4/1R1n1pp1/2p1p2p/2P5/3PP3/8/3B1PPP/5K2 w - -


my 2 cents, but i see a great deal of analysis in this thread from others, particularly jeroen...however the simple fact is in this thread you have been in disagreement with everyone on pretty much everything. in that sense the burden of proof is on you; just as it cannot be expected that you do the legwork for both sides, it cannot be expected that others will demonstrate something they don't see but you alone claim, & claim is quite simple or obvious at that.

[M ANSARI]

Taking the pawn was not the wisest decision by Carlsen as it kept him absolutely passive just trying to make sure his queen did not get trapped. The play was all white and while white had many options to play the position, black was on a knife edge and had to play "only" moves to avoid immediate loss. This type of precision is not in a humans favor even if you are Carlsen ... who is technically one of the most precise human chess players. He did eventually equalize the position but just like a mortal human, he let his guard down and was lost after one bad move. Pretty much the same with his loss against Kramnik ... it is just too difficult for a human to keep up that type of precision where a slight misstep is an immediately losing position. That is why a human sometimes needs to play pragmatically and that is not necessarily always the computers best move.

To be fair to Carlsen, he probably saw his initial draws as making his tournament position have to go for unclear positions where he could possibly outplay his opponents ... but that seems to have backfired as Aronian and Kramnik played very good games. Unlike other players, he is only interested in winning the tournament while other players might be happy with 2nd or a good result that is above their ELO rating.