Uri Blass wrote:
I am not sure if I am copyright holder because it is not clear what means non trivial work(and I only changed few lines here and there when my most complex change is probably my time management change)
I also wonder what is the advantage that being a copyright holder can give people.
Can they win money at court against people who do not respect their copyright and sell stockfish derivatives?
I believe the main power is you have is a say in the license, unless your code is removed, Stockfish could never go commercial against your wishes. When it comes to damages in a lawsuit IMNALNDIPOOTV but I'd guess you'd see nothing.
Uri Blass wrote:
I am not sure if I am copyright holder because it is not clear what means non trivial work(and I only changed few lines here and there when my most complex change is probably my time management change)
I also wonder what is the advantage that being a copyright holder can give people.
Can they win money at court against people who do not respect their copyright and sell stockfish derivatives?
I believe the main power is you have is a say in the license, unless your code is removed, Stockfish could never go commercial against your wishes. When it comes to damages in a lawsuit IMNALNDIPOOTV but I'd guess you'd see nothing.
<edit>s/private/commercial/</edit>
Note that it is possible that somebody sell stockfish's derivative and people discover that it is a stockfish derivative only one after he already earned money from it.
mcostalba wrote:But there is another side effect of open development that could be more threatening for commercial engines, a threat that was not foreseen in advance and that even I didn't realize it would be a problem. This is the obsolescence of release process: just few days after Stockfish 4 is out, almost all power users have dismissed it in favor of last nightly build (I just come here now from Playchess where there is even not one SF 4 but are all nightly builds): this is something commercial engines have no defense against, simply they cannot do this. As long as the ELO gap is big it is ok, but when the open developed engine reaches the level of commercials, a new compile each day can really badly affect the commercial release because it greatly speeds up its obsolescent.
I have to say that this was not foreseen and I am sorry for this, it is not out target (daily binaries are even built outside of SF team) but it is something that, considered the open nature of the development, it is almost impossible to avoid.
Marco, there really is no reason to feel sorry, it's called progress. Commercial engines will have to adapt to the new situation or disappear.
You guys have done an awesome job - it's really outstanding to add 100+ Elo to a top engine in less than 6 months. Congratulations to all the contributors for this achievement!
Cheers,
Robert
Robert,
Can we see from your recent posts (or anyway), and mostly silence, that you are not at the momment expecting to come out with any major upgrades in the near future?
He said in the Rybka forum to expect Houdini 4 in November, and he'll announce details in October.
Uri Blass wrote:Note that it is possible that somebody sell stockfish's derivative and people discover that it is a stockfish derivative only one after he already earned money from it.
What is going to happen in this case?
While you could theoretically win some money, in practice it is too hard and attorney fees eat everything up. Settlements are usually of the "don't do that any more" sort.
With all due respects - can we have the thread discussing and celebrating Stockfish's growth? I can see an undercurrent of mistrust and jealousy creeping up. I though the real world was full of that but looks like even the virtual world (espl. Talkchess) is getting infected by this virus. Lets stick to discussing Stockfish's growth rather than what would happen if x went commercial or if the commercial engine Y will be coming out soon and crush every other engine.
Lets behave like true learners in one giant classroom
Have a nice day yo false magicians. Your days are counted.
Since I found this hard to believe, I ran a similar test myself (SF Sept. 8 vs SF4). While the details differ slightly (book, exact time limit, hardware) the test was quite similar. My result showed a gain of just 11.5 elo. The difference is too large to attribute to sample error. Any other theories?
Have a nice day yo false magicians. Your days are counted.
Since I found this hard to believe, I ran a similar test myself (SF Sept. 8 vs SF4). While the details differ slightly (book, exact time limit, hardware) the test was quite similar. My result showed a gain of just 11.5 elo. The difference is too large to attribute to sample error. Any other theories?
My tournament currently shows 16 points over SF4, with 177 games played for the SF development version that was added. Seems a bit more realistic than 30 points, IMO.
Have a nice day yo false magicians. Your days are counted.
Since I found this hard to believe, I ran a similar test myself (SF Sept. 8 vs SF4). While the details differ slightly (book, exact time limit, hardware) the test was quite similar. My result showed a gain of just 11.5 elo. The difference is too large to attribute to sample error. Any other theories?
What were your testing conditions (time control, threads, # of games)? I'm assuming it's 11.5 elo +- some error bar .
SF4 release version has a few changes that can influence self tests, the TT is not cleared between games, and Idle threads sleep is set to false, but that only affects matches with threads > 1. For this reason, our regression tests are performed against the non-release version.
Don't throw in the towel Robert.Houdini is still a piece of art.I'm sure you have something stronger on your desktop in the name of Houdini 4!The problem is the Stockfish team is consistently developing.Have to give them credit,it is amazing or just evolution that they caught and MAYBE passed Houdini 3.
mcostalba wrote:But there is another side effect of open development that could be more threatening for commercial engines, a threat that was not foreseen in advance and that even I didn't realize it would be a problem. This is the obsolescence of release process: just few days after Stockfish 4 is out, almost all power users have dismissed it in favor of last nightly build (I just come here now from Playchess where there is even not one SF 4 but are all nightly builds): this is something commercial engines have no defense against, simply they cannot do this. As long as the ELO gap is big it is ok, but when the open developed engine reaches the level of commercials, a new compile each day can really badly affect the commercial release because it greatly speeds up its obsolescent.
I have to say that this was not foreseen and I am sorry for this, it is not out target (daily binaries are even built outside of SF team) but it is something that, considered the open nature of the development, it is almost impossible to avoid.
Marco, there really is no reason to feel sorry, it's called progress. Commercial engines will have to adapt to the new situation or disappear.
You guys have done an awesome job - it's really outstanding to add 100+ Elo to a top engine in less than 6 months. Congratulations to all the contributors for this achievement!
Cheers,
Robert
Robert,
Can we see from your recent posts (or anyway), and mostly silence, that you are not at the momment expecting to come out with any major upgrades in the near future?
He said in the Rybka forum to expect Houdini 4 in November, and he'll announce details in October.
THAT would be something to look forward to. If he hasn't changed his mind.
.