Mostly for Christophe Theron

[chrisw]

If giving away free versions makes brand loyalty and weakens the commercial strength and survivability of the opposition, then why not? Commercial programmers are in competition with each other not running a branch of the social services. Capitalistic dog eat dog world, ethics do not apply. Christophe, if you wish to see a competitive computer chess in the form of the Olympics - that is possible, but it requires amateur players only.

Hi Chris-
you have a point here,

but 'Capitalistic dog eat dog world, ethics do not apply'?

I get this image in my head of corrupt big business, capable, more than willing, and permitted to doing anything to succeed...a pretty scary thought.

Believe me, I know the feeling, the over-zealousness, the casting of ethic aside in an effort to acheive at any cost.

Norm

Well, the laws apply, capitalism under law is not necessarily corrupt, nor doing 'anything', including illegal things, to succeed. We were talking simply about the 'ethics' of giving away free old versions.

[Uri Blass]

Your analysis is mostly correct.

I just wanted to point out the fact that giving a program for free in this particular context is an act of destruction aimed at other chess programmers.

The user's first thoughts are that it is good for them. They get a strong program for free.

But I know many users who used to appreciate the diversity and hard work produced when several talented programmers were able to fight in a competitive but still fair environment.

Think about Genius, Rebel, Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs, Chess System Tal and many others. Do you remember that any of these programs have been at some point been given for free in an attempt to devaluate the interest in the competitors? I mean, Genius, Fritz or Shredder have all been in position, at some point, to give away for free the previous version, which was still stronger than any best version of any competitor.

But has it happened in the past? No it hasn't. The competitors had a sense of respect for each other.

What is expected now?

I expect users who used to appreciate the diversity to realize, later, too late, that diversity has been killed by an anti-competitive action that, as legal as it is, is in my opinion unethical.



// Christophe

I agree that it is unethical but there is a difference between the situation today and the situation at the time of other programs and maybe part of the programmers did not do like Vas because of other reasons and not because they considered it as unethical.

The difference between Rybka3 and the opponents is clearly bigger.

other programmer could do the same as Vasik but in this case the free version could score more than 40% against the commercial version
so it could reduce sales of the commercial version.

In the case of rybka the difference seem to be something like 70:30 result
so not many are going to avoid buying the commercial version because of the free version.

Uri

It has begun with the first free version of Rybka.



// Christophe

It was not clear with the first version of rybka that it is going to happen again.
Now people can expect it to happen again if rybka makes a clear improvement.

The first free version of rybka also had no functions like multi-pv
analysis that commercial programs usually have.

Uri

[Uri Blass]

Think about Genius, Rebel, Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs, Chess System Tal and many others. Do you remember that any of these programs have been at some point been given for free in an attempt to devaluate the interest in the competitors? I mean, Genius, Fritz or Shredder have all been in position, at some point, to give away for free the previous version, which was still stronger than any best version of any competitor.

But has it happened in the past? No it hasn't. The competitors had a sense of respect for each other.

What is expected now?

I expect users who used to appreciate the diversity to realize, later, too late, that diversity has been killed by an anti-competitive action that, as legal as it is, is in my opinion unethical.

// Christophe

This is like you would want to open total war but in truth you are simply dead wrong.

First it's wrong to state that the above didnt offer their former versions for free. Apropos diversity, I could already in the past take the free version from Rebel. That was either the famous Decade players or directly Rebel 11 or was it 10 but with a wall against the usage of the most strongest level. So far about diversity.

At that time I already had so many programs that I really had not the time to ALSO begin to analyse or to play with the many Tiger versions, Gambit or not. It was already then too many.

But at that time other have made their decisions out of chance also pro Tiger but still we all hadnt yet the number one monster machine. But now we have and if in these days, Rybka 3 is monster number one GM player & advisor, and it costs 35 € more or less then Vas simply continues the Fritz tradition because when Fritz 8 came out you could get Fritz 6 or so for free. Remember for many of us already Fritz 6 was hard to beat.

IMO you are seeking total war arguments nothing else.

The situation is different.
Free Fritz6(Fritz6 Light) was clearly weaker than Shredder in the time that it was released for free.
Something equivalent to releasing free rybka is releasing a program that is still stronger than any best version of any competitor and it simply never happened before rybka.

Uri

[Enir]

obviously, this was seen come...

the subconscious one reveals but you sew of what seems...

if we analyze this logo, can we see a fish? (a Pygocentrus piraya perhaps? )


http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pira%C3%B1a

carrying out a metaphor or comparison, let us compare the world of the chess programming, as an aquarium, in the internet ocean..

the biological balance of an aquarium is very delicate and any minimum interference can destabilize it, to corrupt it and to toss it to lose.

now, do let us imagine that we put a Pygocentrus piraya in the aquarium, (what will this Pygocentrus piraya make with all the aquarium fish? ) TO EAT UP THEM.

after a time, the users that we saw amusing and amusing the aquarium with all those fish of colors, (with different styles and weaknesses that made them only and different) alone we will be able to see Pygocentrus piraya .

fish big and small Pygocentrus piraya , but without diversity...

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

only r is on acuarium chess world... ?¡ boring.

Your methaphor is excellent.

Someone wants the aquarium for him alone.



// Christophe

Hi Christophe,

I think I lost you here. Someone has the aquarium for him alone because his engine is head and shoulders above the rest. But if this is not a desirable situation, the way out of it is getting competitive engines from other programmers, instead of blaming Rybka for it, don’t you think?

Rybka is not going to disappear from the field, and as a user I am thankful for it. So what’s your solution?

Enrique

[Uri Blass]

obviously, this was seen come...

the subconscious one reveals but you sew of what seems...

if we analyze this logo, can we see a fish? (a Pygocentrus piraya perhaps? )


http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pira%C3%B1a

carrying out a metaphor or comparison, let us compare the world of the chess programming, as an aquarium, in the internet ocean..

the biological balance of an aquarium is very delicate and any minimum interference can destabilize it, to corrupt it and to toss it to lose.

now, do let us imagine that we put a Pygocentrus piraya in the aquarium, (what will this Pygocentrus piraya make with all the aquarium fish? ) TO EAT UP THEM.

after a time, the users that we saw amusing and amusing the aquarium with all those fish of colors, (with different styles and weaknesses that made them only and different) alone we will be able to see Pygocentrus piraya .

fish big and small Pygocentrus piraya , but without diversity...

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

only r is on acuarium chess world... ?¡ boring.

Your methaphor is excellent.

Someone wants the aquarium for him alone.



// Christophe

Hi Christophe,

I think I lost you here. Someone has the aquarium for him alone because his engine is head and shoulders above the rest. But if this is not a desirable situation, the way out of it is getting competitive engines from other programmers, instead of blaming Rybka for it, don’t you think?

Rybka is not going to disappear from the field, and as a user I am thankful for it. So what’s your solution?

Enrique

Christophe does not blame Vas for the commercial version but for the free version.

The free version is going to tell the opponents not to compete even for the second place because they can do nothing against free versions.

Usually the situation was that second place can at least sell something better than free programs.

Uri

[Rolf]

Think about Genius, Rebel, Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs, Chess System Tal and many others. Do you remember that any of these programs have been at some point been given for free in an attempt to devaluate the interest in the competitors? I mean, Genius, Fritz or Shredder have all been in position, at some point, to give away for free the previous version, which was still stronger than any best version of any competitor.

But has it happened in the past? No it hasn't. The competitors had a sense of respect for each other.

What is expected now?

I expect users who used to appreciate the diversity to realize, later, too late, that diversity has been killed by an anti-competitive action that, as legal as it is, is in my opinion unethical.

// Christophe

This is like you would want to open total war but in truth you are simply dead wrong.

First it's wrong to state that the above didnt offer their former versions for free. Apropos diversity, I could already in the past take the free version from Rebel. That was either the famous Decade players or directly Rebel 11 or was it 10 but with a wall against the usage of the most strongest level. So far about diversity.

At that time I already had so many programs that I really had not the time to ALSO begin to analyse or to play with the many Tiger versions, Gambit or not. It was already then too many.

But at that time other have made their decisions out of chance also pro Tiger but still we all hadnt yet the number one monster machine. But now we have and if in these days, Rybka 3 is monster number one GM player & advisor, and it costs 35 € more or less then Vas simply continues the Fritz tradition because when Fritz 8 came out you could get Fritz 6 or so for free. Remember for many of us already Fritz 6 was hard to beat.

IMO you are seeking total war arguments nothing else.

The situation is different.
Free Fritz6(Fritz6 Light) was clearly weaker than Shredder in the time that it was released for free.
Something equivalent to releasing free rybka is releasing a program that is still stronger than any best version of any competitor and it simply never happened before rybka.

Uri

Yes never before because Rybka is so strong but here you IMO ask for too much. You ask something of self-restraint from Vas because he's so strong but I think that Enrique has already commented the necessary. Also I dont buy that CT had only that in mind when he begun his campaign. Because, it's really a simple proof, then he wouldnt have attacked JN so viciously in return becasue Jeroen wasnt in the Rybka team at all when the former version came out that is now being (claimed to be) in focus.

Could you show us how this could be fairly solved? If you are so strong, you should at least have two options, one for the money and one for free. But not a third one for free. By writing that I can already see how odd all this sounds. In other words I cant see anything reasonable that forbids Vas to give a then even strongest free engine for free, it's for propaganda purposes while the newest is really the strongest available in the market. And BTW the concrete difference isnt that much in money value, Uri.

As I have understood the motives of the 300+ amateur programmers who compete in test tournaments they do it for their hobby and fun and artistic needs, but they by far dont get hurt by such movements at the top. The true test pilot with always choose his favorites among the 300+.

The situation for CT is different. If he cant improve his engine with something own that he had found out, he loses the customers who must buy the strongest available. And if Christophe Theron was never too much interested in something more like GUI etc. he cant hope for becoming a reasonable alternative to Rybka because here Fritz and its GUI and software adds are state of the art. Fritz always had a marked segment through its wonderful GUI.

If CT and others had wanted to criticise Vasik for something then it's NOT the discussed practice but his cooperation with ChessBase. Because Rybka as analyst on Fritz or CB that is the hype for the general user. Without Rybka ChessBase would have problems although for the human chessplayer Fritz 11 is also strong enough. With Rybka the duo is hard to beat.

I see the future for CT in a cooperation or collaboration with Movei author Uri!! Junior team cooperates with Shredder and then I wished a team with Rebel Ed, Crafty Bob and CSTal Chris Whittington. Hiarcs may choose between these three. Movei would need another strong partner.

Rolf, Sales Agent

[George Tsavdaris]

Think about Genius, Rebel, Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs, Chess System Tal and many others. Do you remember that any of these programs have been at some point been given for free in an attempt to devaluate the interest in the competitors? I mean, Genius, Fritz or Shredder have all been in position, at some point, to give away for free the previous version, which was still stronger than any best version of any competitor.

Really?
Can you give specific facts? Which predecessor of Shredder AND of Fritz AND of Chess Genius could do that?

Needless to say that i disagree with the above since for example i can't find any example for Fritz at all, and also for Shredder the only version i can think of is Shredder 9 where Shredder 8 could be offered for free but the difference between S9 and S8 was too close and in some rating lists S8 appeared even stronger than S9, to do that.

So i'm expecting your 3 examples with Genius, Fritz and Shredder.....

I expect users who used to appreciate the diversity to realize, later, too late, that diversity has been killed by an anti-competitive action that, as legal as it is, is in my opinion unethical.

It's irrelevant if you consider it unethical since it's a complete subjective opinion and i guess there are more subjective opinions that disagree with you.

My opinion is that it is ethical, since i don't really pay attention to all these ethical matters, as they lead most frequently to pointless flamed discussions, and also because they provide easy ways for someone to accuse or say negative things for someone else if he doesn't have any legal arguments against him(note that i'm not necessarily speaking about you in this case).

Note that although i don't find unethical the free Rybka 2.2n2 release, i find it wrong and i was, as i see, the only one i complained about it when Vasik announced it:
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... 7#pid76197

I find it wrong since as i'm saying it may hurt computer Chess evolution.

[Enir]

obviously, this was seen come...

the subconscious one reveals but you sew of what seems...

if we analyze this logo, can we see a fish? (a Pygocentrus piraya perhaps? )


http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pira%C3%B1a

carrying out a metaphor or comparison, let us compare the world of the chess programming, as an aquarium, in the internet ocean..

the biological balance of an aquarium is very delicate and any minimum interference can destabilize it, to corrupt it and to toss it to lose.

now, do let us imagine that we put a Pygocentrus piraya in the aquarium, (what will this Pygocentrus piraya make with all the aquarium fish? ) TO EAT UP THEM.

after a time, the users that we saw amusing and amusing the aquarium with all those fish of colors, (with different styles and weaknesses that made them only and different) alone we will be able to see Pygocentrus piraya .

fish big and small Pygocentrus piraya , but without diversity...

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

only r is on acuarium chess world... ?¡ boring.

Your methaphor is excellent.

Someone wants the aquarium for him alone.



// Christophe

Hi Christophe,

I think I lost you here. Someone has the aquarium for him alone because his engine is head and shoulders above the rest. But if this is not a desirable situation, the way out of it is getting competitive engines from other programmers, instead of blaming Rybka for it, don’t you think?

Rybka is not going to disappear from the field, and as a user I am thankful for it. So what’s your solution?

Enrique

Christophe does not blame Vas for the commercial version but for the free version.

I see.

The free version is going to tell the opponents not to compete even for the second place because they can do nothing against free versions.

Usually the situation was that second place can at least sell something better than free programs.

Uri

Even when the second best is 200 points behind?

Enrique

[Uri Blass]

obviously, this was seen come...

the subconscious one reveals but you sew of what seems...

if we analyze this logo, can we see a fish? (a Pygocentrus piraya perhaps? )


http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pira%C3%B1a

carrying out a metaphor or comparison, let us compare the world of the chess programming, as an aquarium, in the internet ocean..

the biological balance of an aquarium is very delicate and any minimum interference can destabilize it, to corrupt it and to toss it to lose.

now, do let us imagine that we put a Pygocentrus piraya in the aquarium, (what will this Pygocentrus piraya make with all the aquarium fish? ) TO EAT UP THEM.

after a time, the users that we saw amusing and amusing the aquarium with all those fish of colors, (with different styles and weaknesses that made them only and different) alone we will be able to see Pygocentrus piraya .

fish big and small Pygocentrus piraya , but without diversity...

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

only r is on acuarium chess world... ?¡ boring.

Your methaphor is excellent.

Someone wants the aquarium for him alone.



// Christophe

Hi Christophe,

I think I lost you here. Someone has the aquarium for him alone because his engine is head and shoulders above the rest. But if this is not a desirable situation, the way out of it is getting competitive engines from other programmers, instead of blaming Rybka for it, don’t you think?

Rybka is not going to disappear from the field, and as a user I am thankful for it. So what’s your solution?

Enrique

Christophe does not blame Vas for the commercial version but for the free version.

I see.

The free version is going to tell the opponents not to compete even for the second place because they can do nothing against free versions.

Usually the situation was that second place can at least sell something better than free programs.

Uri

Even when the second best is 200 points behind?

Enrique

It never happened in the past but even in that case people may decide that rybka is too expensive for them and they want something cheaper
for smaller prize that is at least better than free programs.

Uri

[Enir]

obviously, this was seen come...

the subconscious one reveals but you sew of what seems...

if we analyze this logo, can we see a fish? (a Pygocentrus piraya perhaps? )


http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pira%C3%B1a

carrying out a metaphor or comparison, let us compare the world of the chess programming, as an aquarium, in the internet ocean..

the biological balance of an aquarium is very delicate and any minimum interference can destabilize it, to corrupt it and to toss it to lose.

now, do let us imagine that we put a Pygocentrus piraya in the aquarium, (what will this Pygocentrus piraya make with all the aquarium fish? ) TO EAT UP THEM.

after a time, the users that we saw amusing and amusing the aquarium with all those fish of colors, (with different styles and weaknesses that made them only and different) alone we will be able to see Pygocentrus piraya .

fish big and small Pygocentrus piraya , but without diversity...

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8665/e ... reewd4.jpg

only r is on acuarium chess world... ?¡ boring.

Your methaphor is excellent.

Someone wants the aquarium for him alone.



// Christophe

Hi Christophe,

I think I lost you here. Someone has the aquarium for him alone because his engine is head and shoulders above the rest. But if this is not a desirable situation, the way out of it is getting competitive engines from other programmers, instead of blaming Rybka for it, don’t you think?

Rybka is not going to disappear from the field, and as a user I am thankful for it. So what’s your solution?

Enrique

Christophe does not blame Vas for the commercial version but for the free version.

I see.

The free version is going to tell the opponents not to compete even for the second place because they can do nothing against free versions.

Usually the situation was that second place can at least sell something better than free programs.

Uri

Even when the second best is 200 points behind?

Enrique

It never happened in the past but even in that case people may decide that rybka is too expensive for them and they want something cheaper
for smaller prize that is at least better than free programs.

Uri

This is not clear to me. Instead, it is clear that some happy owners of the free Rybka engine will end up buying Rybka 3 or Rybka 4. And, of course, any industry likes to share the cake as little as possible. Why would Vas give up a potential market?

Back to the beginning, the only way out of that “aquarium” is delivering competitive engines.

Enrique