Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

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Dann Corbit
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Re: Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

Post by Dann Corbit »

bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
bnemias wrote:
Milos wrote:And why it is not showing real numbers, that you should ask Vas. Like why its exe is so large, or why it takes 64 more MB of memory and other peculiar things.
I think these issues provide more incentive to decompile than anything else.
What is the value of NPS? It's an irrelevant number, except for scale anyway.

While depth is more interesting, different programs consider depth differently. For instance, Junior does not count single reply moves to depth the way that other programs do.

Finally, if a man fails to trim his hedge, should this be a reason to burgle his house?
I think the issue is similar to a tachometer in a car. Should a manufacturer include a tach that reports bogus RPM? Won't affect speed or economy, correct? So the question is, why report something bogus? Many cars don't have a tach, which is better than having one that reports random numbers.
I think it was a marketing move. He wanted to make the program look like it had a powerful eval rather than a supreme search (or a little of both). Just a guess on my part, of course.

I also would prefer some sort of standardized NPS and depth figures, but I think the whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. Using this as an excuse for wrong doing is just that -- an excuse. If you really want to do something wrong, why bother with an excuse at all? Just do the dirty deed and do not pretend you are justified. The ends do not justify the means and two wrongs do not make a right.

Lots of chess engines do wrong things. The PGN standard says a checkmate has a value of 32767. But many chess engines do not use this value. We often see (for instance) 999999 or something of that nature instead. Some engines report the score always for white, and others for the side to move. Shall we extract and publish the code for these engines also?
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Rolf
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Re: Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

Post by Rolf »

Dann Corbit wrote: Lots of chess engines do wrong things. The PGN standard says a checkmate has a value of 32767. But many chess engines do not use this value. We often see (for instance) 999999 or something of that nature instead. Some engines report the score always for white, and others for the side to move. Shall we extract and publish the code for these engines also?
But Dann, what is wrong with that?? The genie was out of the bottle after we decompiled it, so, why bothering to publish it? Isnt opening always better than hiding behind stupid privacy and other human rights? Isnt the law basically something for people who want to hide something? Why cant we just speak it all out in all openess? If we have nothing to hide? That's science, Dann!
Look, we asked Vas to speak, we offered him aspace to admit, we even begged him to confess, but then we couldnt wait any longer. There is a time to take deep thoughts and there is a time where you must act. You cannot do both at the same time. So, we did it.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
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michiguel
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Re: Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

Post by michiguel »

bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
bnemias wrote:
Milos wrote:And why it is not showing real numbers, that you should ask Vas. Like why its exe is so large, or why it takes 64 more MB of memory and other peculiar things.
I think these issues provide more incentive to decompile than anything else.
What is the value of NPS? It's an irrelevant number, except for scale anyway.

While depth is more interesting, different programs consider depth differently. For instance, Junior does not count single reply moves to depth the way that other programs do.

Finally, if a man fails to trim his hedge, should this be a reason to burgle his house?
I think the issue is similar to a tachometer in a car. Should a manufacturer include a tach that reports bogus RPM? Won't affect speed or economy, correct? So the question is, why report something bogus? Many cars don't have a tach, which is better than having one that reports random numbers.
Actually, American cars give bogus numbers. For instance, my car speedometer keeps giving me the number 65, when it is actually 105 km/h.

Miguel
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slobo
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Re: Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

Post by slobo »

michiguel wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
bnemias wrote:
Milos wrote:And why it is not showing real numbers, that you should ask Vas. Like why its exe is so large, or why it takes 64 more MB of memory and other peculiar things.
I think these issues provide more incentive to decompile than anything else.
What is the value of NPS? It's an irrelevant number, except for scale anyway.

While depth is more interesting, different programs consider depth differently. For instance, Junior does not count single reply moves to depth the way that other programs do.

Finally, if a man fails to trim his hedge, should this be a reason to burgle his house?
I think the issue is similar to a tachometer in a car. Should a manufacturer include a tach that reports bogus RPM? Won't affect speed or economy, correct? So the question is, why report something bogus? Many cars don't have a tach, which is better than having one that reports random numbers.
Actually, American cars give bogus numbers. For instance, my car speedometer keeps giving me the number 65, when it is actually 105 km/h.

Miguel
What was your point here?
That Vas was working in a car factory before he became a professional chess programer?
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."
bob
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Re: Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

Post by bob »

michiguel wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
bnemias wrote:
Milos wrote:And why it is not showing real numbers, that you should ask Vas. Like why its exe is so large, or why it takes 64 more MB of memory and other peculiar things.
I think these issues provide more incentive to decompile than anything else.
What is the value of NPS? It's an irrelevant number, except for scale anyway.

While depth is more interesting, different programs consider depth differently. For instance, Junior does not count single reply moves to depth the way that other programs do.

Finally, if a man fails to trim his hedge, should this be a reason to burgle his house?
I think the issue is similar to a tachometer in a car. Should a manufacturer include a tach that reports bogus RPM? Won't affect speed or economy, correct? So the question is, why report something bogus? Many cars don't have a tach, which is better than having one that reports random numbers.
Actually, American cars give bogus numbers. For instance, my car speedometer keeps giving me the number 65, when it is actually 105 km/h.

Miguel
Actually, _mine_ gives _both_. In fact, I believe that all American autos have both mph and kph on the speedos nowaday.
Dann Corbit
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Re: Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

Post by Dann Corbit »

slobo wrote:
michiguel wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
bnemias wrote:
Milos wrote:And why it is not showing real numbers, that you should ask Vas. Like why its exe is so large, or why it takes 64 more MB of memory and other peculiar things.
I think these issues provide more incentive to decompile than anything else.
What is the value of NPS? It's an irrelevant number, except for scale anyway.

While depth is more interesting, different programs consider depth differently. For instance, Junior does not count single reply moves to depth the way that other programs do.

Finally, if a man fails to trim his hedge, should this be a reason to burgle his house?
I think the issue is similar to a tachometer in a car. Should a manufacturer include a tach that reports bogus RPM? Won't affect speed or economy, correct? So the question is, why report something bogus? Many cars don't have a tach, which is better than having one that reports random numbers.
Actually, American cars give bogus numbers. For instance, my car speedometer keeps giving me the number 65, when it is actually 105 km/h.

Miguel
What was your point here?
That Vas was working in a car factory before he became a professional chess programer?
I believe his point was that the ratios are proportional.

IOW, Suppose that Rybka on 2 GHz machine gives 400 NPS. On 4 GHz we will expect 800 NPS.

Goliath on the same 2 GHz machine may report 4000 NPS. On the 4 GHz machine it would report 8000 NPS.

So what have we learned? Faster machines (or more cores) give higher NPS figures, but each and every chess engine gives different NPS figures anyway.

Here is something interesting:
You look at your computer output and it tells you that you are processing at 8792K NPS. What does this tell you about the quality if the chess answer that it will deliver?

Diep is famous for very low NPS. Will you be devastated if Diep reports 190K NPS but gives the right chess move for an answer?
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Peter Skinner
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Re: Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

Post by Peter Skinner »

Dann Corbit wrote: Diep is famous for very low NPS. Will you be devastated if Diep reports 190K NPS but gives the right chess move for an answer?
If I am not mistaken, Zappa was also a "slow" engine... but it was only right twice a day like a broken clock :) (j/k of course)

Peter
I was kicked out of Chapters because I moved all the Bibles to the fiction section.
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slobo
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Re: Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

Post by slobo »

Dann Corbit wrote:
slobo wrote:
michiguel wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
bnemias wrote:
Milos wrote:And why it is not showing real numbers, that you should ask Vas. Like why its exe is so large, or why it takes 64 more MB of memory and other peculiar things.
I think these issues provide more incentive to decompile than anything else.
What is the value of NPS? It's an irrelevant number, except for scale anyway.

While depth is more interesting, different programs consider depth differently. For instance, Junior does not count single reply moves to depth the way that other programs do.

Finally, if a man fails to trim his hedge, should this be a reason to burgle his house?
I think the issue is similar to a tachometer in a car. Should a manufacturer include a tach that reports bogus RPM? Won't affect speed or economy, correct? So the question is, why report something bogus? Many cars don't have a tach, which is better than having one that reports random numbers.
Actually, American cars give bogus numbers. For instance, my car speedometer keeps giving me the number 65, when it is actually 105 km/h.

Miguel
What was your point here?
That Vas was working in a car factory before he became a professional chess programer?
I believe his point was that the ratios are proportional.

IOW, Suppose that Rybka on 2 GHz machine gives 400 NPS. On 4 GHz we will expect 800 NPS.

Goliath on the same 2 GHz machine may report 4000 NPS. On the 4 GHz machine it would report 8000 NPS.

So what have we learned? Faster machines (or more cores) give higher NPS figures, but each and every chess engine gives different NPS figures anyway.

Here is something interesting:
You look at your computer output and it tells you that you are processing at 8792K NPS. What does this tell you about the quality if the chess answer that it will deliver?

Diep is famous for very low NPS. Will you be devastated if Diep reports 190K NPS but gives the right chess move for an answer?
Well,

it is true what you said, but it was not the point.
Because if this information is not important, why did he chose to show it?
If he did chose to show it, why did he decide to show a false information?

Showing a false information, on purpose, is not an act of benevolence.
How could we believe a guy who show us, all the time, false informations?
What is the credibility he has?
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."
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michiguel
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Re: Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

Post by michiguel »

slobo wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
slobo wrote:
michiguel wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
bnemias wrote:
Milos wrote:And why it is not showing real numbers, that you should ask Vas. Like why its exe is so large, or why it takes 64 more MB of memory and other peculiar things.
I think these issues provide more incentive to decompile than anything else.
What is the value of NPS? It's an irrelevant number, except for scale anyway.

While depth is more interesting, different programs consider depth differently. For instance, Junior does not count single reply moves to depth the way that other programs do.

Finally, if a man fails to trim his hedge, should this be a reason to burgle his house?
I think the issue is similar to a tachometer in a car. Should a manufacturer include a tach that reports bogus RPM? Won't affect speed or economy, correct? So the question is, why report something bogus? Many cars don't have a tach, which is better than having one that reports random numbers.
Actually, American cars give bogus numbers. For instance, my car speedometer keeps giving me the number 65, when it is actually 105 km/h.

Miguel
What was your point here?
That Vas was working in a car factory before he became a professional chess programer?
I believe his point was that the ratios are proportional.

IOW, Suppose that Rybka on 2 GHz machine gives 400 NPS. On 4 GHz we will expect 800 NPS.

Goliath on the same 2 GHz machine may report 4000 NPS. On the 4 GHz machine it would report 8000 NPS.

So what have we learned? Faster machines (or more cores) give higher NPS figures, but each and every chess engine gives different NPS figures anyway.

Here is something interesting:
You look at your computer output and it tells you that you are processing at 8792K NPS. What does this tell you about the quality if the chess answer that it will deliver?

Diep is famous for very low NPS. Will you be devastated if Diep reports 190K NPS but gives the right chess move for an answer?
Well,

it is true what you said, but it was not the point.
Because if this information is not important, why did he chose to show it?
If he did chose to show it, why did he decide to show a false information?

Showing a false information, on purpose, is not an act of benevolence.
How could we believe a guy who show us, all the time, false informations?
What is the credibility he has?
In US everybody tries to deceive me with bogus numbers. For instance, I weight 79 Kg but my balance keeps giving me numbers close to 180. It is an annoying conspiracy but somehow I manage to know when I am losing or gaining weight. Bob is right, there may be some people resisting this Federal conspiracy and they attached the real numbers on car speedometers. They must be working secretly because the number are really small. I was told they are Canadians, but I do not know why. Ah! do not get me started how much they are trying to screw me every time I fill up the gas tank

I think they may be trying to kill people who are no part of this. One day I read that the temperature was 25 and I thought the I could go outside with a T-shirt. I almost froze to death. They good thing is that they are consistent. I adjusted my thermostat with really weird numbers, but we are doing fine...

Miguel
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Re: Is Rybka engine is lying about node per second ?

Post by El Gringo »

slobo wrote:
brennus wrote:Hello,

When i observe Rybka playing and i see the few (nps) sometime i'm asking that the engine output is lying about this, sometime it is up to 20 less nps than "fast" engine.

When i see the uge size of the EXE i think that may be it is not a ly because the eval function is fullfill of chess strategy and it is long to run it.
Of course, but if Rybka always lies, it does not mean that its author does the same. Rybka does it on its own will.
Indeed Slobo, it's rybka's will, there is nothing that vas can do against it....
or maybe he's trying to fool us all... but the rajlich clan is everywhere so i keep my mouth shut. :wink: