Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.
Moderators: hgm , Dann Corbit , Harvey Williamson
Hai
Posts: 585Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:19 pm
Post by Hai Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:02 pm
fastgm wrote: ↑ Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:34 pm
Here is a game,
Stockfish 11 vs Stockfish 11 , default settings, every move till
depth 50 , 1.g4 d5
[pgn][Event "Match - 1.g4 d5 - Stockfish 11 depth 50"]
[Site "FastGM"]
[Date "2020.01.22"]
[Round ""]
[White "Stockfish 11"]
[Black "Stockfish 11"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Opening "Grob's attack"]
[PlyCount "174"]
[TimeControl "inf"]
1. g4 {book} d5 {book} 2. g5 {-0.93/50 26812s} e5 {+1.68/50 23962s}
3. Bg2 {-1.00/50 12146s} Nc6 {+1.72/50 6973s} 4. d4 {-1.01/50 6076s}
exd4 {+1.60/50 2872s} 5. Nf3 {-1.09/50 7516s} Bc5 {+1.48/50 6526s}
6. Nbd2 {-0.93/50 6235s} Bb6 {+1.53/50 8610s} 7. Nb3 {-1.13/50 8374s}
Nge7 {+1.71/50 5848s} 8. a4 {-1.16/50 5853s} Na5 {+1.43/50 4947s}
9. Nfxd4 {-1.18/50 6581s} c5 {+1.34/50 5300s} 10. Nf3 {-1.20/50 6389s}
Nxb3 {+1.56/50 9386s} 11. cxb3 {-1.39/50 6856s} O-O {+1.68/50 9839s}
12. h4 {-1.46/50 6754s} Nc6 {+1.71/50 9540s} 13. h5 {-1.58/50 5159s}
Bg4 {+1.94/50 2612s} 14. Rh4 {-1.26/50 5800s} Qd7 {+1.85/50 4209s}
15. Nh2 {-1.37/50 7797s} Be6 {+2.12/50 5459s} 16. Bf4 {-1.60/50 11925s}
Rae8 {+2.01/50 10981s} 17. Kf1 {-1.61/50 4894s} Bd8 {+1.94/50 5155s}
18. Nf3 {-1.75/50 2569s} Bf5 {+2.28/50 16987s} 19. Kg1 {-1.79/50 8266s}
f6 {+2.08/50 4760s} 20. g6 {-1.96/50 5603s} hxg6 {+2.47/50 3769s}
21. hxg6 {-1.96/50 2189s} Bxg6 {+2.46/50 3628s} 22. Ne1 {-2.06/50 1266s}
Be4 {+2.84/50 2861s} 23. Bd6 {-1.92/50 665s} f5 {+3.04/50 2598s}
24. Bxf8 {-2.93/50 2629s} Bxh4 {+3.40/50 3118s} 25. Bxc5 {-3.21/50 2185s}
d4 {+3.40/50 2095s} 26. a5 {-3.23/50 1572s} Re6 {+3.79/50 2342s}
27. b4 {-3.43/50 595s} Rg6 {+3.96/50 1778s} 28. f3 {-3.08/50 2018s}
Bxe1 {+4.02/50 2011s} 29. fxe4 {-3.55/50 856s} fxe4 {+4.40/50 710s}
30. Qxe1 {-3.83/50 529s} Qg4 {+4.67/50 555s} 31. Qf1 {-3.89/50 277s}
Rf6 {+4.78/50 423s} 32. Qc1 {-4.35/50 1117s} Qg3 {+4.82/50 879s}
33. Ra3 {-3.88/50 1005s} e3 {+4.90/50 675s} 34. Rxe3 {-4.44/50 384s}
dxe3 {+4.84/50 382s} 35. Qxe3 {-4.62/50 292s} Qe1+ {+5.14/50 2626s}
36. Kh2 {-4.62/50 245s} Rh6+ {+5.57/50 3483s} 37. Bh3 {-4.62/50 371s}
Qh4 {+5.58/50 2195s} 38. Qb3+ {-4.73/50 572s} Kh8 {+5.58/50 266s}
39. Qf3 {-4.73/50 37s} Nd4 {+5.69/50 543s} 40. Bxd4 {-4.73/50 78s}
Qxd4 {+5.70/50 603s} 41. Qf8+ {-4.73/50 127s} Kh7 {+5.82/50 478s}
42. Qf5+ {-5.38/50 1909s} g6 {+5.99/50 1457s} 43. Qf7+ {-6.07/50 3975s}
Qg7 {+6.46/50 2030s} 44. Qf4 {-6.30/50 1708s} Qe7 {+6.58/50 365s}
45. Kg3 {-7.08/50 4676s} Rh5 {+6.58/50 85s} 46. Bg4 {-7.41/50 5499s}
Rb5 {+6.58/50 94s} 47. Qd2 {-7.61/50 3531s} Rxb4 {+7.36/50 2288s}
48. Bf3 {-7.70/50 3718s} Rb5 {+7.36/50 94s} 49. Kf2 {-8.51/50 14269s}
Qc5+ {+8.39/50 4964s} 50. Kf1 {-8.51/50 272s} Rxa5 {+9.64/50 13489s}
51. Qd7+ {-8.74/50 6257s} Kh6 {+10.79/50 17088s} 52. Qh3+ {-10.49/50 37164s}
Kg5 {+11.83/50 19151s} 53. Kg2 {-10.62/50 12291s} Qd4 {+15.51/50 70063s}
54. b3 {-18.75/50 279436s} Re5 {+19.25/50 53109s} 55. Qh7 {-19.81/50 84162s}
b5 {+50.69/50 84708s} 56. Qh1 {-47.55/50 94552s} a5 {+50.69/50 1999s}
57. Kg3 {-58.46/50 10153s} Re3 {+50.69/50 350s} 58. Kg2 {-58.78/50 775s}
a4 {+52.60/50 834s} 59. bxa4 {-147.92/50 4199s} bxa4 {+59.50/50 1035s}
60. Qb1 {-147.92/50 2966s} Re5 {+147.92/50 2239s} 61. Qc1+ {-M62/50 497s}
Kf6 {+M61/50 2010s} 62. Kf1 {-M58/50 308s} Kg7 {+M59/50 137s}
63. Qc7+ {-M54/50 130s} Kh6 {+M55/50 113s} 64. Qb8 {-M52/50 231s}
Qa1+ {+M53/50 176s} 65. Kf2 {-M50/50 20s} Rf5 {+M51/50 74s}
66. Qh2+ {-M48/50 34s} Kg7 {+M49/50 52s} 67. Qc7+ {-M46/50 79s}
Rf7 {+M47/50 50s} 68. Qc4 {-M44/50 59s} a3 {+M45/50 87s} 69. Kg2 {-M42/50 60s}
Qe5 {+M43/50 27s} 70. Qa2 {-M40/50 45s} Qg5+ {+M41/50 4.7s}
71. Kf2 {-M36/50 41s} Qc5+ {+M39/50 14s} 72. Kg2 {-M36/50 24s}
Rf5 {+M37/50 7.8s} 73. Qa1+ {-M34/50 9.5s} Kh7 {+M35/50 2.7s}
74. Qh1+ {-M32/50 5.6s} Kg8 {+M27/50 23s} 75. Kh3 {-M30/50 6.6s}
Qe3 {+M25/50 2.4s} 76. Qd1 {-M24/50 7.8s} Rh5+ {+M23/50 0.77s}
77. Kg2 {-M22/50 0.36s} Rg5+ {+M21/50 0.42s} 78. Kh3 {-M20/50 2.0s}
Qf4 {+M19/50 1.7s} 79. Qd8+ {-M18/50 0.22s} Kg7 {+M17/50 0.20s}
80. Qe7+ {-M16/50 0.22s} Kh6 {+M15/50 0.18s} 81. Qxg5+ {-M14/50 0.14s}
Qxg5 {+M13/50 0.26s} 82. Bd5 {-M12/50 0.24s} Qxd5 {+M11/50 0.26s}
83. e4 {-M10/50 0.41s} Qxe4 {+M9/50 0.48s} 84. Kg3 {-M8/50 0.12s}
a2 {+M7/50 0.12s} 85. Kf2 {-M6/50 0.010s} a1=Q {+M5/50 0.009s}
86. Kg3 {-M4/50 0.003s} Qg1+ {+M3/50 0.003s} 87. Kh3 {-M2/50 0.001s}
Qgg2# {+M1/50 0.003s, Black mates} 0-1[/pgn]
2.g5 is a blunder.
It's the third best move.
2. Bg2 is at least 0.15 better.
fastgm
Posts: 818Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:57 pm
Post by fastgm Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:37 pm
Here another game with 10 cores and 16 GB Hash, Stockfish 11 vs Stockfish 11, contempt=0, each move till depth 50
Hai
Posts: 585Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:19 pm
Post by Hai Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:44 pm
fastgm wrote: ↑ Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:37 pm
Here another game with 10 cores and 16 GB Hash, Stockfish 11 vs Stockfish 11, contempt=0, each move till depth 50
[pgn][Event "Match - 1.g4 d5 - Stockfish 11 depth 50"]
[Site "FastGM"]
[Date "2020.02.03"]
[Round ""]
[White "Stockfish 11"]
[Black "Stockfish 11"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Opening "Grob's attack"]
[PlyCount "206"]
[TimeControl "inf"]
1. g4 {book} d5 {book} 2. e3 {-1.34/50 15148s} e5 {+1.29/50 7366s}
3. d4 {-1.44/50 12897s} exd4 {+1.46/50 3867s} 4. exd4 {-1.54/50 1454s}
Qe7+ {+1.47/50 2006s} 5. Be3 {-1.39/50 991s} Qe4 {+1.44/50 4122s}
6. Nf3 {-1.44/50 1805s} Bxg4 {+1.53/50 1443s} 7. Nbd2 {-1.38/50 1460s}
Qf5 {+1.53/50 1635s} 8. h3 {-1.47/50 4590s} Bh5 {+1.56/50 2761s}
9. Bd3 {-1.46/50 1770s} Qd7 {+1.40/50 2098s} 10. c3 {-1.63/50 1840s}
Nc6 {+1.57/50 1370s} 11. Qc2 {-1.53/50 4403s} Nge7 {+1.64/50 2539s}
12. O-O-O {-1.40/50 3467s} O-O-O {+1.58/50 3650s} 13. Rde1 {-1.63/50 3746s}
Bg6 {+1.48/50 967s} 14. Nb3 {-1.61/50 3513s} Bxd3 {+1.64/50 4183s}
15. Qxd3 {-1.53/50 1486s} Qf5 {+1.74/50 2149s} 16. Qd1 {-1.74/50 689s}
Ng6 {+1.66/50 1774s} 17. Reg1 {-1.65/50 1625s} Bd6 {+1.80/50 1626s}
18. Rg5 {-1.71/50 1322s} Qe6 {+1.57/50 1667s} 19. h4 {-1.62/50 3519s}
h5 {+1.69/50 5975s} 20. Ne1 {-1.76/50 3312s} Be7 {+1.70/50 2535s}
21. Rgg1 {-1.62/50 2155s} b6 {+1.69/50 5488s} 22. Bg5 {-1.76/50 3225s}
Bf6 {+1.53/50 4900s} 23. Kb1 {-1.55/50 2213s} Bxg5 {+1.83/50 1297s}
24. Rxg5 {-1.70/50 2184s} Nge7 {+1.69/50 1035s} 25. Nc2 {-1.72/50 253s}
g6 {+1.65/50 545s} 26. Ne3 {-1.95/50 451s} Ng8 {+1.72/50 290s}
27. Nc1 {-1.72/50 6060s} Nf6 {+1.71/50 84s} 28. Nd3 {-1.72/50 13s}
Ne4 {+1.96/50 2358s} 29. Rg2 {-1.72/50 4.5s} Rhe8 {+1.79/50 180s}
30. Re1 {-1.72/50 9.6s} Qf6 {+1.70/50 193s} 31. Rh2 {-1.72/50 299s}
Kb7 {+1.70/50 77s} 32. Rh3 {-1.72/50 40s} Ne7 {+1.69/50 73s}
33. a3 {-1.72/50 164s} c6 {+1.69/50 93s} 34. Ka2 {-1.72/50 43s}
Nd6 {+1.69/50 46s} 35. Ne5 {-1.72/50 128s} Nef5 {+1.72/50 624s}
36. Rf3 {-1.72/50 69s} Re6 {+1.72/50 81s} 37. Rf4 {-1.78/50 666s}
Nxe3 {+1.72/50 432s} 38. fxe3 {-1.78/50 142s} Qe7 {+1.72/50 7.0s}
39. Rg1 {-1.78/50 50s} Rf6 {+1.72/50 14s} 40. Rxf6 {-1.78/50 19s}
Qxf6 {+1.72/50 38s} 41. Rf1 {-1.78/50 39s} Qe6 {+1.72/50 78s}
42. Qf3 {-1.78/50 32s} Nf5 {+1.72/50 43s} 43. Qf4 {-1.78/50 44s}
Rc8 {+1.72/50 152s} 44. b3 {-1.78/50 42s} Re8 {+1.72/50 74s}
45. Rf2 {-1.78/50 90s} Re7 {+1.72/50 100s} 46. a4 {-1.78/50 65s}
Rc7 {+1.72/50 222s} 47. Kb2 {-1.90/50 1058s} Qe7 {+1.72/50 114s}
48. Qh2 {-2.02/50 996s} Qxh4 {+2.48/50 345s} 49. Qxh4 {-2.60/50 176s}
Nxh4 {+2.71/50 313s} 50. Nxf7 {-2.60/50 22s} Nf5 {+2.71/50 22s}
51. Ne5 {-2.60/50 57s} Nxe3 {+2.71/50 32s} 52. Rf3 {-2.60/50 17s}
Ng2 {+2.71/50 35s} 53. Nxg6 {-2.60/50 40s} h4 {+2.71/50 12s}
54. Nf8 {-2.60/50 37s} Re7 {+2.71/50 14s} 55. b4 {-2.60/50 18s}
Re2+ {+2.71/50 39s} 56. Kc1 {-2.60/50 14s} Nf4 {+2.71/50 8.6s}
57. Rxf4 {-2.60/50 2.4s} h3 {+2.71/50 0.46s} 58. Rf7+ {-2.60/50 14s}
Ka8 {+2.71/50 0.72s} 59. Rh7 {-2.60/50 3.0s} h2 {+2.71/50 4.7s}
60. Ng6 {-2.60/50 2.4s} Re1+ {+2.71/50 0.70s} 61. Kc2 {-2.60/50 1.5s}
h1=Q {+2.71/50 4.7s} 62. Rxh1 {-2.60/50 0.89s} Rxh1 {+2.71/50 0.38s}
63. Ne7 {-2.60/50 2.7s} Kb7 {+2.71/50 1.4s} 64. b5 {-2.60/50 0.29s}
cxb5 {+2.71/50 0.77s} 65. axb5 {-2.60/50 0.24s} Rh5 {+2.71/50 0.54s}
66. Ng6 {-2.60/50 0.89s} Kc7 {+2.71/50 0.25s} 67. Nf4 {-2.60/50 0.91s}
Rh2+ {+2.71/50 0.91s} 68. Kb3 {-7.09/50 18s} Kd6 {+2.71/50 0.19s}
69. Nd3 {-14.20/50 243s} Rh3 {+2.71/50 0.39s} 70. Nb4 {-16.50/50 195s}
Ke6 {+5.51/50 14s} 71. Nc6 {-66.18/50 1379s} Rh7 {+55.26/50 224s}
72. Nb4 {-147.92/50 350s} Rd7 {+147.92/50 77s} 73. Nd3 {-147.92/50 111s}
Kf5 {+147.92/50 55s} 74. Nb4 {-147.92/50 226s} Ke4 {+147.92/50 55s}
75. Nc6 {-147.92/50 34s} Ke3 {+147.92/50 94s} 76. Ne5 {-147.92/50 101s}
Rg7 {+147.92/50 128s} 77. Kb2 {-147.92/50 262s} Kd2 {+147.92/50 295s}
78. Nf3+ {-147.92/50 142s} Kd1 {+148.94/50 118s} 79. Ne5 {-148.95/50 176s}
Rg2+ {+148.96/50 37s} 80. Kb3 {-148.96/50 246s} Rg3 {+149.02/50 37s}
81. Nc6 {-149.02/50 87s} Kd2 {+149.03/50 12s} 82. Kb2 {-149.03/50 34s}
Rxc3 {+149.04/50 2.7s} 83. Ne7 {-149.04/50 27s} Rc4 {+M41/50 35s}
84. Nxd5 {-M40/50 23s} Rxd4 {+M39/50 0.022s} 85. Nc7 {-M38/50 0.056s}
Rb4+ {+M37/50 0.034s} 86. Ka3 {-M36/50 0.14s} Rc4 {+M35/50 0.036s}
87. Nd5 {-M34/50 0.073s} Rc5 {+M33/50 0.033s} 88. Nb4 {-M32/50 0.081s}
Rxb5 {+M31/50 0.031s} 89. Ka4 {-M30/50 1.5s} a6 {+M29/50 0.017s}
90. Nxa6 {-M28/50 0.063s} Ra5+ {+M27/50 0.039s} 91. Kb4 {-M26/50 0.28s}
Rxa6 {+M25/50 0.022s} 92. Kb5 {-M24/50 0.14s} Ra1 {+M23/50 0.038s}
93. Kc6 {-M22/50 0.17s} Rc1+ {+M21/50 0.35s} 94. Kb5 {-M20/50 0.081s}
Rc8 {+M19/50 0.050s} 95. Ka6 {-M18/50 0.084s} Rc4 {+M17/50 0.088s}
96. Kb7 {-M16/50 0.027s} Kc3 {+M15/50 0.050s} 97. Ka7 {-M14/50 0.068s}
Kb4 {+M13/50 0.083s} 98. Kxb6 {-M12/50 0.014s} Rc1 {+M11/50 0.017s}
99. Ka6 {-M10/50 0.011s} Kc5 {+M9/50 0.010s} 100. Kb7 {-M8/50 0.006s}
Kb5 {+M7/50 0.005s} 101. Ka7 {-M6/50 0.004s} Kc6 {+M5/50 0.004s}
102. Kb8 {-M4/50 0.003s} Ra1 {+M3/50 0.003s} 103. Kc8 {-M2/50 0.002s}
Ra8# {+M1/50 0.006s, Black mates} 0-1[/pgn]
2.e3 is the fourth best move.
2.Bg2 is at least 0.27 better for black.
zullil
Posts: 6442Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 amLocation: PA USAFull name: Louis Zulli
Post by zullil Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:50 pm
Hai wrote: ↑ Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:44 pm
2.e3 is the fourth best move.
2.Bg2 is at least 0.27 better for black.
It seems silly to me to assert that a certain move is
best . According to what/whom?
My
guess is that all these moves are equally good; they all draw with perfect play. What exactly does "best" even mean?
Alayan
Posts: 550Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:48 pmFull name: Alayan Feh
Post by Alayan Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:51 pm
Hai wrote: ↑ Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:44 pm
2.e3 is the fourth best move.
2.Bg2 is at least 0.27 better for black.
You don't know this.
Graham Banks
Posts: 41179Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 amLocation: Auckland, NZ
Post by Graham Banks Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:53 pm
zullil wrote: ↑ Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:50 pm Hai wrote: ↑ Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:44 pm
2.e3 is the fourth best move.
2.Bg2 is at least 0.27 better for black.
It seems silly to me to assert that a certain move is
best . According to what/whom?
My
guess is that all these moves are equally good; they all draw with perfect play. What exactly does "best" even mean?
1.g4 is a lost move for white in my opinion. No draw with perfect play.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
Ovyron
Posts: 4556Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:30 am
Post by Ovyron Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:55 pm
You can make any 2nd move by white better than the others by just pounding the others' scores until they're worse.
Graham Banks wrote: ↑ Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:53 pm 1.g4 is a lost move for white in my opinion. No draw with perfect play.
After 4 months of analyzing these positions I'm about to be converted to that opinion.
zullil
Posts: 6442Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 amLocation: PA USAFull name: Louis Zulli
Post by zullil Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:38 pm
Graham Banks wrote: ↑ Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:53 pm zullil wrote: ↑ Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:50 pm Hai wrote: ↑ Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:44 pm
2.e3 is the fourth best move.
2.Bg2 is at least 0.27 better for black.
It seems silly to me to assert that a certain move is
best . According to what/whom?
My
guess is that all these moves are equally good; they all draw with perfect play. What exactly does "best" even mean?
1.g4 is a lost move for white in my opinion. No draw with perfect play.
I don't think either of us will know for sure. At least, not in this life.
Spliffjiffer
Posts: 415Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:48 pmLocation: Germany
Post by Spliffjiffer Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:09 am
every single seconds we are obsessed with the determinism of the evaluation of our days...is it so difficult to understand that a 200 elo more efficient partner will beat the devil out of you when u trust on an entity that is currently unbeatable ?...what is it about to be much better than you... does this make any sense to u noobs ??...are such deterministic people able to get a truth at all in our current world of explanations ?...get rdy for the new explanation imo,...determinism was ardy yesterday peers !
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.
mmt
Posts: 343Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:33 amFull name: .
Post by mmt Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:23 pm
Too many possibilities to prove it but what could be feasible is to test all white responses within let's say 0.2 pawns off the main SF and LC0 line (more lines closer to the root) down to >3.0 eval at decent time controls. This would pretty strongly suggest that it's lost. You could start at just 0.1 and 2.0 and make it a distributed project. Same with some other opening lines. You could also try to get an actual estimate of the likelihood that 1. g4 is lost with perfect play but that's for another post.
