Why I stood up for Allie is why I stand up for FF2

[AndrewGrant]

Hey dkappe, now that I've answered your stupid question apropos of nothing ... Big yes or no question of the day for you: Is Houdini a Stockfish fork/clone/derivative? Yes or No.

No idea.

Brilliant

[Madeleine Birchfield]

And dkappe is now defending the Stockfish clone Fire 8, which has already been determined by cucumber, Alayan, Andrew Grant, et cetera to be a Stockfish clone a few months ago, using the source code of Fire 8 beta that its author Norman Schmidt has given them. He claims that making judgments based on Fire 8's source code (and of Fire 4/Seagull's source code) is of shoddy quality.

Yes? So? Are The White Rose, Night Nurse, Dark Horse or Toga net all blatant clones of Stockfish? How come they don’t play like one another or SF? (See the SIMEX of a few months ago.)

White Rose, Night Nurse, Dark Horse, and so on are neural nets, not engines. The nets can inserted into Stockfish and the engine is of course Stockfish. If they are inserted into another NNUE player like Igel or Rubichess, then the engine isn't Stockfish; it is Igel or Rubichess, et cetera. However, the likes of White Rose, Night Nurse, etc cannot play chess on their own independent of an engine. It's like calling Stein or Bad Gyal an engine and a Leela clone; no they aren't; if Stein is inserted into Leela then the engine is Leela, if it is inserted into Allie then the engine is Allie, etc.

You need to be able to distinguish between a neural network and an engine. Night Nurse is a neural net for the NNUE architecture. Stein is a neural net for the Ankan/Leela architecture. Allie is a mostly unique engine that only shares the Ankan backends; it could run Ankan/Leela style nets like Stein and J92. Igel is a mostly unique engine that only shares the NNUE backends, it could run Night Nurse style nets. Fat Fritz 2 claims to be its own engine by Albert Silver but but is really a clone of Stockfish 13 dev with only a different neural network. And Fire 8 of course is a straight up Stockfish 8 clone with minimal changes to Stockfish 8.

None of this controversey over Fat Fritz 2 would have happened imo if Albert Silver stated from the get go that he was selling a different neural network for the Stockfish engine for 100 euros, but because he tried passing Fat Fritz 2 as a unique engine instead of a neural network for Stockfish, the comnunity is thus right in calling the engine Fat Fritz 2 a Stockfish clone.

[Dann Corbit]

Gentlemen,
I propose respect.

[AndrewGrant]

Gentlemen,
I propose respect.

How can there be respect when this man fabricated forum history to libel me?

[Dann Corbit]

When you show respect, it never lessens your position.
In fact, it always strengthens it.
On the other hand, when you are disrespectful, it is a demonstration that you cannot imagine a suitable yet civil argument.

[towforce]

In honor of you dkappe, I've gone ahead and tried very hard to make a similar shitty regression to SF. Here is my 5 minutes worth of work:

https://github.com/manyoso/Stockfish/tr ... regression

As you can see I've taken SF 13 and disabled LMR, Futility move pruning, Null move pruning, Extensions, Singular ext, and Probcut. I'm sure it is quite shitty. See: like your crap I'd call my shitty regression not even a clone. I'm pretty sure it would have a different SIMEX score to SF too.

You've made a new branch, changed the code and have stored it as a new project/repo. Sounds like a "fork" to me. IMO, a "clone" would have the same code - but I don't think there's universal agreement about exactly what "clone" means in terms of source control.

[Sopel]

When you show respect, it never lessens your position.
In fact, it always strengthens it.
On the other hand, when you are disrespectful, it is a demonstration that you cannot imagine a suitable yet civil argument.

Have some respect to this forum and delete this thread.

[gonzochess75]

When you show respect, it never lessens your position.
In fact, it always strengthens it.
On the other hand, when you are disrespectful, it is a demonstration that you cannot imagine a suitable yet civil argument.

Have some respect to this forum and delete this thread.

Agreed. This thread is nothing but dkpappe's passive aggressive attempt to concerned troll Allie. He's no friend of Allie and has been banned from the Allie discord forum.

[Dann Corbit]

Deletion of a thread because we do not agree with it is the most outrageous sort of wrong a moderator could possibly commit,
Discussion itself is the art of two sides talking and reaching a logical conclusion.
If we decide to remove those with opposing views, that is the death of discussion.

In order to delete a thread or censor a post it must violate the charter in some way. That does not mean that it makes you angry or that you think it is stupid or that you think it is wrong. It can be all of those things but that still does not make it worthy of deletion,

Now you see what a terrible choice you have made in choosing me as moderator. Though I suspect that many of you are not guilty of that offense,

[dkappe]

And dkappe is now defending the Stockfish clone Fire 8, which has already been determined by cucumber, Alayan, Andrew Grant, et cetera to be a Stockfish clone a few months ago, using the source code of Fire 8 beta that its author Norman Schmidt has given them. He claims that making judgments based on Fire 8's source code (and of Fire 4/Seagull's source code) is of shoddy quality.

Yes? So? Are The White Rose, Night Nurse, Dark Horse or Toga net all blatant clones of Stockfish? How come they don’t play like one another or SF? (See the SIMEX of a few months ago.)

White Rose, Night Nurse, Dark Horse, and so on are neural nets, not engines. The nets can inserted into Stockfish and the engine is of course Stockfish. If they are inserted into another NNUE player like Igel or Rubichess, then the engine isn't Stockfish; it is Igel or Rubichess, et cetera. However, the likes of White Rose, Night Nurse, etc cannot play chess on their own independent of an engine. It's like calling Stein or Bad Gyal an engine and a Leela clone; no they aren't; if Stein is inserted into Leela then the engine is Leela, if it is inserted into Allie then the engine is Allie, etc.

You need to be able to distinguish between a neural network and an engine. Night Nurse is a neural net for the NNUE architecture. Stein is a neural net for the Ankan/Leela architecture. Allie is a mostly unique engine that only shares the Ankan backends; it could run Ankan/Leela style nets like Stein and J92. Igel is a mostly unique engine that only shares the NNUE backends, it could run Night Nurse style nets. Fat Fritz 2 claims to be its own engine by Albert Silver but but is really a clone of Stockfish 13 dev with only a different neural network. And Fire 8 of course is a straight up Stockfish 8 clone with minimal changes to Stockfish 8.

None of this controversey over Fat Fritz 2 would have happened imo if Albert Silver stated from the get go that he was selling a different neural network for the Stockfish engine for 100 euros, but because he tried passing Fat Fritz 2 as a unique engine instead of a neural network for Stockfish, the comnunity is thus right in calling the engine Fat Fritz 2 a Stockfish clone.

So, if they had just called out clearly that it was a neural network instead of an engine, it would be ok? Too easy. From the ChessBase announcement: “First implemented in chess in Stockfish 12, now it powers the new Fat Fritz 2, a neural network twice its size, which takes it to the next level – vast chess knowledge paired with lightning speed.” So Fat Fritz 2, according to ChessBase, is a neural net.

Do people in this forum actually read or think for themselves? Or if Andy says it’s a clone it’s a clone. If Andy says that Albert claimed it was an engine, then it must be so.