Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

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Uri Blass
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Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

Post by Uri Blass »

Build a pgn of games when
25% of the games are woman white against woman black
25% of the games are woman white against man black
25% of the games are man white against woman black
25% of the games are man white against man black.
Average of chess rating of men and women in the pgn should be the same.

Is it possible to build a software that define who is man and who is woman with probability to be right that is significantly more than 50%?
jefk
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Re: Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

Post by jefk »

it also depends on the rating, i think,
and then maybe with some AI, some style differences
could be identified, yet still with low certainly/correlation nr.
my 2 cnts
Joerg Oster
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Re: Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

Post by Joerg Oster »

Uri Blass wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:57 am Build a pgn of games when
25% of the games are woman white against woman black
25% of the games are woman white against man black
25% of the games are man white against woman black
25% of the games are man white against man black.
Average of chess rating of men and women in the pgn should be the same.

Is it possible to build a software that define who is man and who is woman with probability to be right that is significantly more than 50%?
Why would you even want to do this in the first place?
They both play chess. Period.
Jörg Oster
Uri Blass
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Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

Post by Uri Blass »

Joerg Oster wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:51 pm
Uri Blass wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:57 am Build a pgn of games when
25% of the games are woman white against woman black
25% of the games are woman white against man black
25% of the games are man white against woman black
25% of the games are man white against man black.
Average of chess rating of men and women in the pgn should be the same.

Is it possible to build a software that define who is man and who is woman with probability to be right that is significantly more than 50%?
Why would you even want to do this in the first place?
They both play chess. Period.
The reason for this question is Smirin's comment that Goryachkina played like a man.
Smirin lost his job as a commentator because of this comment together with additional comments

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-63062092

Smirin meant that she played well but it may be interesting if there are difference in style between men and women of the same playing strength.
Ferdy
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Re: Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

Post by Ferdy »

Uri Blass wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:57 am Build a pgn of games when
25% of the games are woman white against woman black
25% of the games are woman white against man black
25% of the games are man white against woman black
25% of the games are man white against man black.
Average of chess rating of men and women in the pgn should be the same.

Is it possible to build a software that define who is man and who is woman with probability to be right that is significantly more than 50%?
What do you mean by "Build a pgn of games"? What is the logic behind building those games in relation to "Chess style of women"?

Can you give more explanation about that? "Is it possible to build a software that define who is man and who is woman with probability to be right that is significantly more than 50%?"
DrCliche
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Re: Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

Post by DrCliche »

No, there's no such thing as a female chess style. Even if there are minor stylistic differences at the population level, those differences would have minimal predictive power, as it's clear that individual preferences are overwhelmingly the largest source of variation between chess players.

We also have no way of confidently asserting true population level distributions in the first place, because the sample size of women is probably too small. If anything, all we can reasonably say about the "style of women" is that they seem to prefer not to play chess in the first place. If I had to guess, that preference is almost entirely a cultural artifact, but of course it's plausible that biological factors have some small influence.
jhellis3
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Re: Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

Post by jhellis3 »

Probably. NNs can do some pretty remarkable stuff...

Decision making in high stress situations is affected by fight or flight response, which is affect by testosterone.

Higher testosterone increases chances of aggressive decisions. Aggression tends to pay off in games of skill when the player is skilled.

On the other hand, women tend to do better with more variables than men....
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Deberger
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Re: Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

Post by Deberger »

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Bo Persson
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Re: Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

Post by Bo Persson »

jhellis3 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:09 am Probably. NNs can do some pretty remarkable stuff...

Decision making in high stress situations is affected by fight or flight response, which is affect by testosterone.

Higher testosterone increases chances of aggressive decisions. Aggression tends to pay off in games of skill when the player is skilled.

On the other hand, women tend to do better with more variables than men....
So even if we find a difference between the selected groups, how do we know that this correlates to gender (or testosterone) and not age, height, weight, eye color, or left-handedness?

Not everything that seems to correlate is a cause-effect.
Uri Blass
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Is it possible to define chess style of women in chess?

Post by Uri Blass »

Ferdy wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:42 am
Uri Blass wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:57 am Build a pgn of games when
25% of the games are woman white against woman black
25% of the games are woman white against man black
25% of the games are man white against woman black
25% of the games are man white against man black.
Average of chess rating of men and women in the pgn should be the same.

Is it possible to build a software that define who is man and who is woman with probability to be right that is significantly more than 50%?
What do you mean by "Build a pgn of games"? What is the logic behind building those games in relation to "Chess style of women"?

Can you give more explanation about that? "Is it possible to build a software that define who is man and who is woman with probability to be right that is significantly more than 50%?"
I mean for example to make the following steps
1)Choose a big pgn of human games(call it big.pgn).
2)For every game build a pgn of games in the same equivalence class
2 games are in the same equivalence class only if the rating of the players are the same(they may play with opposite colors).
3)For every game when white is a woman and black is a woman with different rating we hope that we have additional 7 games in the same equivalence class when every combination of gender of white,gender of black,rating of white appear(there are 2 options in every case so there are a total of 8 options).
If we find 7 games then we reduce the size of the big.pgn by 8 games and put the relevant 8 games in the file that we build new.pgn
4)If we do not find 7 games because at least one of the sets is empty then we reduce big.pgn by throwing all the games with the same equivalence class from the big.pgn.
5)We repeat step 3 and 4 and stop when big.pgn is empty.
new.pgn is the file that we built.

If new.pgn is too small after all these actions then maybe we need to round off the rating of the players in big.pgn(for example to change rating of 2377 to 2375 and rating of 2378 to 2380).