End of the Torch Experiement

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Krzysztof Grzelak
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Re: End of the Torch Experiement

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak »

AndrewGrant wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:07 am
Ras wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:48 pm
Steve Maughan wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:32 pmThe reason Chess.com created Torch was to have an engine that it controlled and so they didn't need to tip-toe around the licensing agreement for various use cases.
Hardly so. For their server use, Stockfish with GPL (not: AGPL!) would not be a problem at all because the binary is never delivered to the users. However, there would be no selling point because everyone can run Stockfish at home.
They could even make it available as part of the top-tier sunscription.
That would be a commercial mistake. If you run a subscription based platform, the last thing you'd want to do is dealing out features that enable people to enjoy the benefits away from the platform.
There is very little harm in releasing it as a free UCI engine; and there is very little harm in keeping it internal to the site.

At the end of the day, unless Torch surpasses Stockfish, and does so by margins that are obvious without massive hardware testing, there is no real value in it. Its an infinite arms race to improve the engine, with no particular purpose. All of us here know that of course. And we don't care! Keep improving engines. :D

I would be annoyed though to watch degenerate developers reverse engineer Torch to find the (10? 20?) elo they could add to Stockfish.
Well, we are waiting for it to be made available to everyone Andrew.
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towforce
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Re: End of the Torch Experiement

Post by towforce »

All the people waiting for it to become public: when a new analysis engine, or new bots, become available in Chess.com, that will be Torch.
The simple reveals itself after the complex has been exhausted.
CornfedForever
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Re: End of the Torch Experiement

Post by CornfedForever »

towforce wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:43 pm All the people waiting for it to become public: when a new analysis engine, or new bots, become available in Chess.com, that will be Torch.
I am happy to hear that...don't think it's what all those asking are wanting to hear though. :wink:
Modern Times
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Re: End of the Torch Experiement

Post by Modern Times »

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:19 pm Well, we are waiting for it to be made available to everyone Andrew.
Why on earth would chess.com do that, having invested what I think is a large sum of money in it in order to drive their business ? It seems that a lot of people think everything should be free these days.
Damir
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Full name: Damir Desevac

Re: End of the Torch Experiement

Post by Damir »

Says the one who got Torch Engine for free as a tester..
RubiChess
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Re: End of the Torch Experiement

Post by RubiChess »

Modern Times wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:25 pm
Krzysztof Grzelak wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:19 pm Well, we are waiting for it to be made available to everyone Andrew.
Why on earth would chess.com do that, having invested what I think is a large sum of money in it in order to drive their business ? It seems that a lot of people think everything should be free these days.
My guess is that the money went into Torch development is just peanuts for a company like chess.com. But I agree that there is no value for them making it available for sale.
Chessqueen
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Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: End of the Torch Experiement

Post by Chessqueen »

RubiChess wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 6:21 pm
Modern Times wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:25 pm
Krzysztof Grzelak wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:19 pm Well, we are waiting for it to be made available to everyone Andrew.
Why on earth would chess.com do that, having invested what I think is a large sum of money in it in order to drive their business ? It seems that a lot of people think everything should be free these days.
My guess is that the money went into Torch development is just peanuts for a company like chess.com. But I agree that there is no value for them making it available for sale.
Torch last version could be sold to us, and donate some some money to the development team
smatovic
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Full name: Srdja Matovic

Re: End of the Torch Experiement

Post by smatovic »

Chessqueen wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 2:33 am [...]
You can add a url via [ url] [ /url] (w/o white spaces) without being embedded as media player, you might annoy some users, just saying.

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Srdja
jefk
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Full name: Jef Kaan

Re: End of the Torch Experiement

Post by jefk »

well Srdja i've simply put mr CQ on my ignore ('foe') list, but his name (and quotes of his silly messages) still pop up
(also notified a moderator but didn't get a reaction; that they grant some freedom of expression is understandable
but his impulsive messages with posting misleading youtube clips for me became rather annoying).
Anyway, i did'n't bother anymore to react to his (confused) messages about anti-chess (earlier I already I
wrote that it had been solved with 1.e3, but he didn't understand and continued with misleading messages
the strength of an -older- SF(airy) version, before Nnue). Anyway, I think anti (or losers) chess is flawed, and did a quick
check with the Pulsar variant engine and winboard to see if it can be corrected; removing the pawn at a7 may be
an idea, and leads to more balanced (b/w) play again. Something maybe for https://www.antichess.org/
(otherwise for online play you most likely get cheating eg. with a database of the antichess openings).
His drivel about this highly flawed ''ARB system' was the main reason to say goodbye. Years ago this already
was discussed, viewtopic.php?t=48818
The inventor by now should be 75 yrs if still alive, and he (a certain mr Brown) was banned a few times
with different accounts on chess.com after continous spamming with his nonsensical system. Nowadays
with Nnue engines this odd system obviously is completely inadequate and as human playing as such you will be
quickly demolished. A more modern similar system is the (semi) Hippopotamus, (with ARB being reversed
Hippopotamus) with the emphasis on 'semi' otherwise White quickly -and rather easily- can beat this system
in variants with f4, and a later f5.
https://www.newinchess.com/the-hippopotamus-defence.
Concluding, as some others also wrote, the subtopic 'general topics' imo is being spammed with yt vids
and this probably inhibits other, more productive discussions. For this reason i had a look to open-chess.org
and the postings there (still?) seem to be of a higher quality, although it's also not very busy there;
apparently Discord nowadays is the place to go; besides the SF server there is a Discord server
'engine programming' but it seems to be about game engines and not (only?) chess (anyway i'll have a look
to see if they talk about GUI programming (for chess), otherwise the Lichess server is an idea.
PS regarding the latter topic, while i talked about (the oldfashioned?) topic of system development
'cycles', nowadays the concept of UI/UX seems to be the hot(test) topic, see eg:
https://www.codecademy.com/learn/intro-to-ui-ux
https://www.coursera.org/specializations/ui-ux-design
But i'm getting off topic now (wrt the Torch engine) :)
smatovic
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Full name: Srdja Matovic

Re: End of the Torch Experiement

Post by smatovic »

jefk wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 7:31 am well Srdja i've simply put mr CQ on my ignore ('foe') list, but his name (and quotes of his silly messages) still pop up
(also notified a moderator but didn't get a reaction; that they grant some freedom of expression is understandable
but his impulsive messages with posting misleading youtube clips for me became rather annoying).
[...]
Hmm, CQ got banned (cos of signature misuse) and if YT embed is the issue, the mods can deactivate that module in phpBB backend:

Youtube links
viewtopic.php?t=83925

Ban of member
viewtopic.php?t=83939

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Srdja