OT: Checkers is solved!

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tjfroh
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Re: OT: Checkers is solved!

Post by tjfroh » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:09 pm

Terry McCracken wrote:
Vinvin wrote:
Philippe wrote:I hope this stupid game of chess will be solved in the same way.
I bet chess won't be solved in year 2100.
Safe bet...we'll all be dust by then :wink:
Terry,

It is true that most of us will be deceased by 2100 but chess is already solved for most of us.

Tim
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rjand
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Re: OT: Checkers is solved!

Post by rjand » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:36 pm

tjfroh wrote:Uri,

If you were to play the best 8x8 checker players then you would lose 100% of the time. For you, checkers is not solved.

Here is a good site for you to download a strong 8x8 checker program.
http://www.fierz.ch/download.php

You can also get 10 piece EGTB 214 GByte databases for $160.00 USD from another site.

TJ
Another really nice and powerful free checker program is GUI Checkers by the same author as SlowChess!
Best,
Rick

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Graham Banks
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Re: OT: Checkers is solved!

Post by Graham Banks » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:37 pm

Philippe wrote:I hope this stupid game of chess will be solved in the same way.
If you think chess is stupid, then why are you here?

Uri Blass
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Re: OT: Checkers is solved!

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:03 pm

tjfroh wrote:Uri,

If you were to play the best 8x8 checker players then you would lose 100% of the time. For you, checkers is not solved.

Here is a good site for you to download a strong 8x8 checker program.
http://www.fierz.ch/download.php

You can also get 10 piece EGTB 214 GByte databases for $160.00 USD from another site.

TJ
Not sure about it.

If I will learn checkers maybe things can be different but I have other things to do.

Uri

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Denis P. Mendoza
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Re: OT: Checkers is solved!

Post by Denis P. Mendoza » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:15 pm

It's an achievement for the Chinook team to reach this feat. Computer programs of American checkers (English Draughts) has been my first start in this AI board game hobby before chess. I think what they mean was solving American Checkers and not the other 8X8 checker variants - italian, brazilian, russian, etc.

Martin Fierz has just released recently his 64-bit version of CakeM and GUI as well. Kingsrow1.16c has just been released too by Ed Gilbert followed by his 10-pc endgame database (not free). Now that checkers is solved, maybe engine development will gradually stop in this variant. Nemesis and World Championship Checkers, good commercial engines, will be affected by this news too. This holds true probably on future engine tournaments as well. I hope not.

But nevertheless, playing fun games with Checkerboard and its free compatible engines (Cake, Kingsrow, Simple Checkers, DeepBrew, GuiCheckers, etc.) will remain forever.

Terry McCracken

Re: OT: Checkers is solved!

Post by Terry McCracken » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:49 pm

tjfroh wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Vinvin wrote:
Philippe wrote:I hope this stupid game of chess will be solved in the same way.
I bet chess won't be solved in year 2100.
Safe bet...we'll all be dust by then :wink:
Terry,

It is true that most of us will be deceased by 2100 but chess is already solved for most of us.

Tim
To the average person that might be so. But the fact is Chess can't be fully known, so it's not solved and will take a very long time before it becomes just another puzzle.

Computers that are in general use today won't be the machines that finally solve chess.

Terry

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Mike S.
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Re: OT: Checkers is solved!

Post by Mike S. » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:47 pm

Terry McCracken wrote: If chess were solved today, people would say, "That's nothing new, IBM solved it years ago beating some world champion."
That is quoted often, but actually I never read that somebody really said or wrote that. It's pure imagination. I think anybody is aware that a match win is different from "solving." When Kasparov beat Karpov he didn't solve chess, and when Kramnik beat Kasparov in their match, he didn't solve chess, and nobody had the idea he did.

Is there a true original quote where somebody considerd the 1997 D.B. match win as "chess is solved" (without ?). - Maybe it made some sense as a headline question.

I think solving 8*8 checkers is a great achievement.
Regards, Mike

Terry McCracken

Re: OT: Checkers is solved!

Post by Terry McCracken » Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:24 am

Mike S. wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote: If chess were solved today, people would say, "That's nothing new, IBM solved it years ago beating some world champion."
That is quoted often, but actually I never read that somebody really said or wrote that. It's pure imagination. I think anybody is aware that a match win is different from "solving." When Kasparov beat Karpov he didn't solve chess, and when Kramnik beat Kasparov in their match, he didn't solve chess, and nobody had the idea he did.

Is there a true original quote where somebody considerd the 1997 D.B. match win as "chess is solved" (without ?). - Maybe it made some sense as a headline question.

I think solving 8*8 checkers is a great achievement.
You misunderstood me. All I was saying to Leto, that the average man in the street doesn't know or care, and if asked that might be a probable response. :wink:

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Mike S.
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Re: OT: Checkers is solved!

Post by Mike S. » Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:38 am

Terry McCracken wrote: You misunderstood me. All I was saying to Leto, that the average man in the street doesn't know or care, and if asked that might be a probable response. :wink:
No, I understood that it isn't you who thinks that. But what I mean is I doubt that anybody thinks that, including the average man. Because I always saw that (only) as an imaginary quote, never as a real quote from somewhere. - But never mind... this is not an important question.

Something more interesting: From the Wikipedia article which is linked at the Chinook pages, I read that "our" Kirill Kryukov, known from CCRL, has solved 3*3 chess:

http://kd.lab.nig.ac.jp/3x3-chess/

I didn't know that yet. Congratulations! :mrgreen:

P.S.: What about 4*4 chess? Is there a common definition of it (which pieces etc.), and isn't it solved yet?
Regards, Mike

Mark
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Re: OT: Checkers is solved!

Post by Mark » Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:22 am

Denis P. Mendoza wrote:It's an achievement for the Chinook team to reach this feat. Computer programs of American checkers (English Draughts) has been my first start in this AI board game hobby before chess. I think what they mean was solving American Checkers and not the other 8X8 checker variants - italian, brazilian, russian, etc.

Martin Fierz has just released recently his 64-bit version of CakeM and GUI as well. Kingsrow1.16c has just been released too by Ed Gilbert followed by his 10-pc endgame database (not free). Now that checkers is solved, maybe engine development will gradually stop in this variant. Nemesis and World Championship Checkers, good commercial engines, will be affected by this news too. This holds true probably on future engine tournaments as well. I hope not.

But nevertheless, playing fun games with Checkerboard and its free compatible engines (Cake, Kingsrow, Simple Checkers, DeepBrew, GuiCheckers, etc.) will remain forever.
It's funny that I've followed the progress in solving checkers with great interest, but I've never really played the game.

By the way, the book about the development of Chinook (One Jump Ahead) is great and would probably be of interest to all of the computer chess enthusiasts here.

Mark

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