Komodo - Rybka in Danger?

[Rolf]

If you and Rybka's team decide not to show them we could suspect that it was Rybka's team that has stolen the king location tables from Ippo family.

I wondered if it would come down to this. Not only is Vas guility of slander, but it was actually Vas who stole the code from Ippolitto! I'll bet Vas was also somehow involved in those faked moon landings too. Finally the truth comes out.

Yep - he should change his signature. Good intentions bah!
Hopefully, a lot more members can now see the whole sham for what it is.

Who ever took anything from Slobo and comrades for serious? That they follow a sort of campaign agenda was already clear a long time ago. Alone Slobs speech of this "show us!" who is "us LOL" what means "show"? Who is "us"? Ridiculous.

[Graham Banks]

If you and Rybka's team decide not to show them we could suspect that it was Rybka's team that has stolen the king location tables from Ippo family.

I wondered if it would come down to this. Not only is Vas guility of slander, but it was actually Vas who stole the code from Ippolitto! I'll bet Vas was also somehow involved in those faked moon landings too. Finally the truth comes out.

Yep - he should change his signature. Good intentions bah!
Hopefully, a lot more members can now see the whole sham for what it is.

Who ever took anything from Slobo and comrades for serious? That they follow a sort of campaign agenda was already clear a long time ago. Alone Slobs speech of this "show us!" who is "us LOL" what means "show"? Who is "us"? Ridiculous.

Well you do have to admit Rolf, that they had a lot of people sucked in - hook, line and sinker.
Hopefully many of them are a lot wiser now.

[bob]

I would also like to say that I don't know how I got sucked into this. I personally don't really care that much on a personal level there is nothing at stake for me - it's just that my own personal sense of justice is offended when I see someone get ripped off like Vas was, and this is followed up by character assassination cleverly disguised as concern for his well being.

Thanks for speaking it out in your position with your status. Because we have many members who cant understand something even if it#s right before their eyes - if the wrong or nameless people are telling them about it. This is my fate e.g., but I dont care because I know what is right and what is wrong.

Let me add this. Here in CCC we have most famous programmers (Theron, Hyatt) who simply dont get what this all about.

They prejudge Vasik as a person. a) Vas has no moral education - if I would behave this way, I could increase my Tiger to the same extent lkike Rybka [NB that exact proof for the allegation was never presented, nowhere, neither here or elsewhere on webpages] b) Vas is a liar [also here without proof]

Nobody sane would believe that Vas begins to elaborate in front of such people and their insults.

Now we have people (pseudo names) who argue as if Vas were stupid. Truth is Vas has thought about all these arguments and saw no way to finally convince a community that stands under the influence of such experts who attack ad hominem. Who make accusations without proving their claims in scientifically sober ways.

My verdict goes even deeper. Bob wrote in a seperate message that for him it's unacceptable that Vas made a claim (vs Rolino) and then decides to add nothing more because after Bob it's the obligation to prove a claim. Again, he himself, Bob Hyatt, did never prove his claim 'he's a liar' nor Theron proved that Vas had no moral education, but this just as an aside, for me the statement is nonsense and I'm surprised that Bob is going into such a provably false direction. Here is the proof that this is total nonsense:

Fact is Vas informed about a sort of blackmail approach via email. He didnt make a claim! In truth he reported what had happened and that he wouldnt care about it because it makes no sense to let your peace of mind be disturbed by crooks and cloners. This is the online description of a reaction but this is no claim at all.

We must learn that this sort of aggressiveness in communication isnt everybody's favorite! This <<Aha you pretend this or that , now tell "us" quickly where you got this. How can you make such a "claim". But I, Bob, oppose that and now you must prove it. It's a duty! Because else you should never have made this sort of claim!!!!>>

But again, it is no claim in reaL, it's Bob and other people who want to get into a fight with Vas, but Vas just ignores it. He doesnt see and doesnt want such conflicts because they dont lead nowhere. And that is a legal position of deepest wisdom. Because how you could defend against ad hominem?

My comments are _not_ "ad hominem". They are based on plain and simple fact. In the "liar" case, "there is no fruit code in Rybka" is false. It seems that some already admit that the UCI parser code was copied. But they say no "playing code". However, last time I checked, "no" means _none_. Not "just a little" or "just unimportant parts." However, there is much more than just UCI code here, some details have been published. Some will be published at some point in the future. But "no" was a very poor choice of words, when you think about it. You can't be "just a little bit pregnant". You are or you are not.

[michiguel]

I would also like to say that I don't know how I got sucked into this. I personally don't really care that much on a personal level there is nothing at stake for me - it's just that my own personal sense of justice is offended when I see someone get ripped off like Vas was, and this is followed up by character assassination cleverly disguised as concern for his well being.

Thanks for speaking it out in your position with your status. Because we have many members who cant understand something even if it#s right before their eyes - if the wrong or nameless people are telling them about it. This is my fate e.g., but I dont care because I know what is right and what is wrong.

Let me add this. Here in CCC we have most famous programmers (Theron, Hyatt) who simply dont get what this all about.

They prejudge Vasik as a person. a) Vas has no moral education - if I would behave this way, I could increase my Tiger to the same extent lkike Rybka [NB that exact proof for the allegation was never presented, nowhere, neither here or elsewhere on webpages] b) Vas is a liar [also here without proof]

Nobody sane would believe that Vas begins to elaborate in front of such people and their insults.

Now we have people (pseudo names) who argue as if Vas were stupid. Truth is Vas has thought about all these arguments and saw no way to finally convince a community that stands under the influence of such experts who attack ad hominem. Who make accusations without proving their claims in scientifically sober ways.

My verdict goes even deeper. Bob wrote in a seperate message that for him it's unacceptable that Vas made a claim (vs Rolino) and then decides to add nothing more because after Bob it's the obligation to prove a claim. Again, he himself, Bob Hyatt, did never prove his claim 'he's a liar' nor Theron proved that Vas had no moral education, but this just as an aside, for me the statement is nonsense and I'm surprised that Bob is going into such a provably false direction. Here is the proof that this is total nonsense:

Fact is Vas informed about a sort of blackmail approach via email. He didnt make a claim! In truth he reported what had happened and that he wouldnt care about it because it makes no sense to let your peace of mind be disturbed by crooks and cloners. This is the online description of a reaction but this is no claim at all.

We must learn that this sort of aggressiveness in communication isnt everybody's favorite! This <<Aha you pretend this or that , now tell "us" quickly where you got this. How can you make such a "claim". But I, Bob, oppose that and now you must prove it. It's a duty! Because else you should never have made this sort of claim!!!!>>

But again, it is no claim in reaL, it's Bob and other people who want to get into a fight with Vas, but Vas just ignores it. He doesnt see and doesnt want such conflicts because they dont lead nowhere. And that is a legal position of deepest wisdom. Because how you could defend against ad hominem?

My comments are _not_ "ad hominem". They are based on plain and simple fact. In the "liar" case, "there is no fruit code in Rybka" is false. It seems that some already admit that the UCI parser code was copied. But they say no "playing code". However, last time I checked, "no" means _none_. Not "just a little" or "just unimportant parts." However, there is much more than just UCI code here, some details have been published.

You keep saying it but it is not true. Zach did not make it public. At this point, I really do not understand why you insist.

Miguel

Some will be published at some point in the future. But "no" was a very poor choice of words, when you think about it. You can't be "just a little bit pregnant". You are or you are not.

[lkaufman]

I can't even read RobboLito code myself, I'm not a programmer. I based my conclusion on an email from a reliable independent chess programmer (no connection to Don, me, or Rybka) who sent this king table he either found in or derived from an early Ippo version. He had no access to Rybka code himself, he just sent this info along. I compared it with my files of the values sent to Vas for R3, and the resemblance was startling. I didn't ask for other tables to compare, one was enough for me. It was also obvious to me that using Ippo (or later Robbo) for analysis generally produced evals extremely close to R3 in most situations, with rare exceptions. This should be equally obvious to anyone who compares them in analyzing many positions.
I could post the king table I submitted, but as I said I have no proof that it is actually in R3, I only know that Vas told me any time he made even the slightest changes to my terms or values, so I have no personal doubt on this point. So I'll leave it to others to post the relevant section from the R3 code if they wish to do so.
I don't claim that Robbo has taken the entire Rybka eval. Rather it seems that some parts may have been too difficult to decipher and were left out. So of course I won't post the whole eval even if I could prove it to be in R3.

[Don]

My comments are _not_ "ad hominem".

You called Vas unethical and that is a personal attack on him.

They are based on plain and simple fact. In the "liar" case, "there is no fruit code in Rybka" is false. It seems that some already admit that the UCI parser code was copied. But they say no "playing code". However, last time I checked, "no" means _none_. Not "just a little" or "just unimportant parts." However, there is much more than just UCI code here, some details have been published. Some will be published at some point in the future. But "no" was a very poor choice of words, when you think about it. You can't be "just a little bit pregnant". You are or you are not.

[Rolf]

I would also like to say that I don't know how I got sucked into this. I personally don't really care that much on a personal level there is nothing at stake for me - it's just that my own personal sense of justice is offended when I see someone get ripped off like Vas was, and this is followed up by character assassination cleverly disguised as concern for his well being.

Thanks for speaking it out in your position with your status. Because we have many members who cant understand something even if it#s right before their eyes - if the wrong or nameless people are telling them about it. This is my fate e.g., but I dont care because I know what is right and what is wrong.

Let me add this. Here in CCC we have most famous programmers (Theron, Hyatt) who simply dont get what this all about.

They prejudge Vasik as a person. a) Vas has no moral education - if I would behave this way, I could increase my Tiger to the same extent lkike Rybka [NB that exact proof for the allegation was never presented, nowhere, neither here or elsewhere on webpages] b) Vas is a liar [also here without proof]

Nobody sane would believe that Vas begins to elaborate in front of such people and their insults.

Now we have people (pseudo names) who argue as if Vas were stupid. Truth is Vas has thought about all these arguments and saw no way to finally convince a community that stands under the influence of such experts who attack ad hominem. Who make accusations without proving their claims in scientifically sober ways.

My verdict goes even deeper. Bob wrote in a seperate message that for him it's unacceptable that Vas made a claim (vs Rolino) and then decides to add nothing more because after Bob it's the obligation to prove a claim. Again, he himself, Bob Hyatt, did never prove his claim 'he's a liar' nor Theron proved that Vas had no moral education, but this just as an aside, for me the statement is nonsense and I'm surprised that Bob is going into such a provably false direction. Here is the proof that this is total nonsense:

Fact is Vas informed about a sort of blackmail approach via email. He didnt make a claim! In truth he reported what had happened and that he wouldnt care about it because it makes no sense to let your peace of mind be disturbed by crooks and cloners. This is the online description of a reaction but this is no claim at all.

We must learn that this sort of aggressiveness in communication isnt everybody's favorite! This <<Aha you pretend this or that , now tell "us" quickly where you got this. How can you make such a "claim". But I, Bob, oppose that and now you must prove it. It's a duty! Because else you should never have made this sort of claim!!!!>>

But again, it is no claim in reaL, it's Bob and other people who want to get into a fight with Vas, but Vas just ignores it. He doesnt see and doesnt want such conflicts because they dont lead nowhere. And that is a legal position of deepest wisdom. Because how you could defend against ad hominem?

My comments are _not_ "ad hominem". They are based on plain and simple fact. In the "liar" case, "there is no fruit code in Rybka" is false. It seems that some already admit that the UCI parser code was copied. But they say no "playing code". However, last time I checked, "no" means _none_. Not "just a little" or "just unimportant parts." However, there is much more than just UCI code here, some details have been published. Some will be published at some point in the future. But "no" was a very poor choice of words, when you think about it. You can't be "just a little bit pregnant". You are or you are not.

I agree with you this is all ok but still you are wrong and I will prove that again. Bob, I beg you to rethink it. If say in a case someone makes a weak statement does this P_R_O_V_E beyond doubt that he lied?? In my eyes you seek to find proof where you cant find it. Ok, in a private sort of court the slightest weakness would prove someone wrong but not in a court with science and justice experts. And for all not in a court like here on the net. You take every little bit and see something meaningful but you cant prove what someone meant with what he said. Our speech is too ambiguous to be taken in a 1-to-1 interpretation. If you want to make a case out of such indices you must at least collect several pieces of evidence not just a single expression.

I cant imagine that you really didnt know this. I am sure you know all this. But here you give the impression to young members as if you had a case. IMO it's a totally different task to check if a program has some Crafty code.

It would help us all if you would at least admit that you had no case beyond reasonable doubts. Please. Let's come to agreements about a minimal consent.

[benstoker]

Well, this stuff was made public by the clones, and anyway Vas had asked me to keep such general eval knowledge confidential for a year, and it's now been a year and a half. Still I won't reveal exact values of terms in R3 even if they are more or less public due to the clones (or "derivatives" if you prefer). I doubt that they would be of much use to a non-clone program anyway, as different programs require different values for terms.

I would like to know something:
1. If only you and Vas had the Rybka 3 code, how did the "cloners" managed to get it ?
2. If Rybka's code is alredy "stealed", why you and Vas don't present evidences that the "cloners" code and the Rybka 3 one is the same?

For what reason should they do this? Every reasonable person already knows that these "clones" are based on Rybka, and whoever is left is not going to be convinced no matter what additional evidence is presented.

I know from my own dealings with people that if someone really want to believe something, no amount of evidence or logic is going to change them.

You paint everyone that is not firmly in your camp about this subject as unreasonable about this subject. That is unreasonable in and of itself as I (and others) apparently do not know what you know. We, for the most part do not believe any particular side. We are asking for enough real proof so that we know that we are not condemning the authors of Ippolit unjustly. You and all the magistrates in your camp just want us, the mob, to conduct a lynching without having a trial based solely on what you believe or claim that you know. I for one am not convinced that your knowing is not merely faith based and without solid support. Logically, it is not up to the people that do not know to prove a negative, however, it is up to the people that claim that they know for sure to prove positively that they are correct. If no one on your side is willing to do that then in the end, you have no case.

It's not really like that. The issue is the underlying message that Vas is some of kind of lying fraud. Nobody want to talk directly about what is really being implied here, and instead wants to take little jabs and imply that Vas must be guilty of something because he is afraid to aggressively go after the cloners. He must be hiding something - he must be afraid or otherwise he would do that because we think he should. It's a government cover-up!

I'm not speaking to those who really want to know the facts, which have already been clearly presented - I'm speaking to those who seem to have a need to dismiss or ignore the facts.

I would also like to say that I don't know how I got sucked into this. I personally don't really care that much on a personal level there is nothing at stake for me - it's just that my own personal sense of justice is offended when I see someone get ripped off like Vas was, and this is followed up by character assassination cleverly disguised as concern for his well being.

It is unfortunate that a very few have made this about Vas. The issue for me and I presume most others is Ippolit and its legality and nothing more. I do not want to believe blindly either way. But, as I said above it is not up to the people that do not know, to prove anything and we have waited long enough for the people that do know to prove it to us. As a member of the jury I conclude that the prosecution has failed to prove their case or even make their case. I vote not guilty.

There's the cagey behaviour of Vas and the holier-than-thou-shut-all-discussion-down-you-are-an-idiot-character-assasin line of argument in here.

Is there something kinda weird about it all? Dr. Hyatt said it best. If you make a claim, back it up, otherwise, shut up. It is important to settle the ownership issie because people will and probably should use it, if it is legitimately[/] GPL or public domain.

Now, I am trying to imagine why someone would prefer that the public NOT ever REALLY know whether the ippolit code is stolen; prefer foreclosure of any further investigation ...

What could be the motivation for that?

It's easy to see the motivation of those who want to know. Right? I surely would like to UNDERSTAND and experiment with and use and modify the code that beats Rybka. BUT, I don't want to, if it's somebody's else's stolen property!!!!!!

DO YOU GET THAT DON, ET AL.? [If you ippo people want to "assassinate" Vas' character, please start a different thread -- call it something like "Why Vas is a Meanie" -- because all this garbage about Vas' character is OFF-TOPIC concerning the legitimacy of the ippo code]

We know what Dr. Hyatt would do, don't we? If someone misappropriated crafty and hacked up a cheap smartphone chess app or whatever and it came to light, then Dr. Hyatt, if he a gave $%#$, would seek redress and we know him well enough to EXPECT that he would make his case and prove the theft.

What if Dr. Hyatt did nothing? What if ippo code is STOLEN and its true owner does nothing? Well, then it's for the taking.

[benstoker]

It's not really like that. The issue is the underlying message that Vas is some of kind of lying fraud. Nobody want to talk directly about what is really being implied here, and instead wants to take little jabs and imply that Vas must be guilty of something because he is afraid to aggressively go after the cloners. He must be hiding something - he must be afraid or otherwise he would do that because we think he should. It's a government cover-up!

__He definitely falls into this category

I'm not speaking to those who really want to know the facts, which have already been clearly presented - I'm speaking to those who seem to have a need to dismiss or ignore the facts.

__What facts are you talking about,we haven't hear or say anything yet

I would also like to say that I don't know how I got sucked into this. I personally don't really care that much on a personal level there is nothing at stake for me - it's just that my own personal sense of justice is offended when I see someone get ripped off like Vas was, and this is followed up by character assassination cleverly disguised as concern for his well being.

__Vasik has drown himself into a moral cesspoll by lying to the clients and fans of Rybka by not releasing the Rybka 3+ and yes I am making my point for the 10 000 time already because I have the rihgt to recieve Rybka 3+ as an honest customer paid for his piece of software....

Vas may very well believe the code is stolen from him. Maybe he has very good reason to believe that. The nothing more than cursory investigations reported in this forum have yielded suspicions, but there frankly are too many questions. Maybe he jumped the gun. Maybe not.

It is reasonable and expected for people to protect their property. Did you know that?

I hope Vas will make his case. He has waited WAY TOO LONG. I have never seen a software company respond to stolen source like Rybka has.

Here's the typical thing to do. You go issue a press release and announce that your proprietary source code has been illegally pirated. You make a big deal about. If you do not want to show proof just then, because you may be doing further investigation, then you definitely want to announce that you have investigators (working with the police, etc.) vigorously investigating the matter to bring the thieves to justice.

To say the least Rybka is public relations disaster.

[benstoker]

My comments are _not_ "ad hominem".

You called Vas unethical and that is a personal attack on him.

They are based on plain and simple fact. In the "liar" case, "there is no fruit code in Rybka" is false. It seems that some already admit that the UCI parser code was copied. But they say no "playing code". However, last time I checked, "no" means _none_. Not "just a little" or "just unimportant parts." However, there is much more than just UCI code here, some details have been published. Some will be published at some point in the future. But "no" was a very poor choice of words, when you think about it. You can't be "just a little bit pregnant". You are or you are not.

Don, there you go again, begging the question.